Have we made Repentance too much of a guilt trip?

Have we perhaps made Repentance too much of a guilt trip?

  • No

    Votes: 10 76.9%
  • Yes

    Votes: 3 23.1%
  • Maybe??? I am definitely going to give this possibility more serious consideration.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    13

DennisTate

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I never really fit into mainstream Christianity, or at least Southern Baptism. The constant wailing and moaning about what "filthy rags" we all are and what ghastly punishments we "deserve" always struck me as phony. No one really believes this. It's pretend Christianity.

OK, I fall far short of God's standard of perfect holiness - that I can understand and accept. I need God's grace, forgiveness and mercy - no problem there. I must repent of my actual sins - certainly.

But I don't hate myself. I don't have to be in a constant state of self-flagellation, moaning over how awful I am. I'm really quite unreasonably pleased with myself, thank you. I don't believe God requires nonbelievers or believers to be in a state of meltdown to come to Christ or remain in Him.


You got it.......
that is exactly what I am thinking we can learn from this.

I do feel that 2018 and 2019 have been two years in which my level of repentance has truly been deepened but.......
the increasing level of CONVICTION that I've felt seems very different from a guilt trip because what I am doing is seeing Sin still in me............

Seeing my own darkness within me more clearly......
but I am really not obsessing over something five, ten or twenty years or more ago.

2018 outpouring, are you feeling it? I am!
 
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aiki

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Revealing God's goodness is the best way to inspire people to genuinely repent but...... a guilt trip over our past sins may be quite ineffective.

A very important part of God's goodness is his moral perfection, His holiness. When a sinner considers God's holiness, he cannot help but feel shame and guilt. This reaction is not unfortunate or unnecessary but natural and right. The apostle James talks about the proper reaction to one's sinfulness:

James 4:8-10
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


James does not urge his readers to a lighthearted dismissal of their sin but to a deep grief over the wickedness of their living.

In any case, true, godly repentance leads to this behaviour James describes but it is not this behaviour itself. First and foremost, repentance is a change of mind, not feelings of remorse, or the forsaking of sin, or embarking upon a holier life. Repentance may lead to these things, but repentance is not, fundamentally, these things. Repentance is simply altering how one thinks about a thing - in the case at hand, about one's sin.

I make this point because often believers engage in emotional histrionics, weeping and moaning about their sin, they resolve and commit themselves to change, they make public confessions of their wickedness and then they go right back into sin. Why? Because real repentance has not actually occurred. A genuine change of mind about sin has not happened. When actual repentance is achieved, when one's mind is truly changed about one's sin, there is no going back to it. If I'm really, truly convinced that the glass of water before me is tainted with a deadly poison, I will not drink it; if I genuinely believe that my neighbor wants to eat my dog, I'm going to take the necessary precautions to protect my dog from my neighbor; if I think that the enemy sharpshooter will blow my brains out if I poke my head out of my foxhole even for a moment, I will keep my head carefully and fully down, out of sight of the sharpshooter at all times; if I'm fully persuaded that my sin is a terrible affront to God and will bring me to death and destruction, I will leave off it.

If we have too much guilt maybe we are not fully recognizing the full effect of the sacrifice of what Messiah Yeshua - Jesus really did for us?

Who says what "too much guilt" is? What gives them the right to set a standard for everyone else in this area? Scripture indicates to me that I cannot take sin too seriously and cannot overreact to its damaging effect upon me, upon others and upon my fellowship with God. If anything, we are always inclined to take our sin far too lightly.
 
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RaymondG

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I've heard said and now understand
you can't give them The Good News
until
you have given them The Bad News.

I always stick with the message
as delivered by John The Baptist.

M-Bob
You mean like this?:
Bad news: "Your house will be set on fire with you in it!"
Good new: "I will save you from that fire....if you believe the bad news....and oh by the way, I created that fire"

Is News truly good, that depends on the introduction and belief of Bad news before it is considered good?
 
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Mountainmanbob

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You mean like this?:
Bad news: "Your house will be set on fire with you in it!"
Good new: "I will save you from that fire....if you believe the bad news....and oh by the way, I created that fire"

Is News truly good, that depends on the introduction and belief of Bad news before it is considered good?

Sure don't sound what's taught in the Bible?
M-Bob
 
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renniks

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Jesus said to preach the Good News of the Gospel to all nations. It's almost amusing how often that Good News ends up sounding more like the Bad News.
It is bad news before it's good news. If you don't know you are broken, why would you go to Someone who can repair your brokenness? And if you ever get to the point where you think you are no longer broken, you are only deceiving yourself and setting yourself up for a fall. That doesn't mean we constantly go around moaning "Woe is me!" But we are not naturally good and we need to know it.
 
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DennisTate

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A very important part of God's goodness is his moral perfection, His holiness. When a sinner considers God's holiness, he cannot help but feel shame and guilt. This reaction is not unfortunate or unnecessary but natural and right. The apostle James talks about the right reaction to one's sinfulness:

James 4:8-10
8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded.
9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.


James does not urge his readers to a lighthearted dismissal of their sin but to a deep grief over the wickedness of their living.

In any case, true, godly repentance leads to this behaviour James describes but it is not this behaviour itself. First and foremost, repentance is a change of mind, not feelings of remorse, or the forsaking of sin, or embarking upon a holier life. Repentance may lead to these things, but repentance is not, fundamentally, these things. Repentance is simply altering how one thinks about a thing - in the case at hand, about one's sin.

I make this point because often believers engage in emotional histrionics, weeping and moaning about their sin, they resolve and commit themselves to change, they make public confessions of their wickedness and then they go right back into sin. Why? Because real repentance has not actually occurred. A genuine change of mind about sin has not happened. When actual repentance is achieved, when one's mind is truly changed about one's sin, there is no going back to it. If I'm really, truly convinced that the glass of water before me is tainted with a deadly poison, I will not drink it; if I genuinely believe that my neighbor wants to eat my dog, I'm going to take the necessary precautions to protect my dog from my neighbor; if I think that the enemy sharpshooter will blow my brains out if I poke my head out of my foxhole even for a moment, I will keep my head carefully and fully down, out of sight of the sharpshooter at all times; if I'm fully persuaded that my sin is a terrible affront to God and will bring me to death and destruction, I will leave off it.



Who says what "too much guilt" is? What gives them the right to set a standard for everyone else in this area? Scripture indicates to me that I cannot take sin too seriously and cannot overreact to its damaging effect upon me, upon others and upon my fellowship with God. If anything, we are always inclined to take our sin far too lightly.

But.... his point was that Messiah Yeshua -Jesus has truly and completely forgiven us.....which is a somewhat different idea.

His teaching is that the blood of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus truly and completely cleanses us from our past sins.
 
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DennisTate

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IMHO.

Throughout our life we have practiced denial and ignorance down to a very fine art. We seem to choose, nearly all the time, what is easy over what is right. Take shortcuts instead of the road least traveled. Being cunningly dishonest about our honesty. We really don't know what we are doing, though we generally think we do.

In the end, when our truth is exposed, most will be shocked to find nothing true about themselves at all. That their whole life story is just that, a story _ a fabrication by their own mind. A total waste of a life on self. A life of error. A life of sin, and we didn't even know it.

Repentance? Oh no! That is too hard, exposing, vulnerable, waste of time, pointless, damning, and not to mention insulting to God.

I'd rather be honest with God, expose my sins and be labelled a fool, than to find out I got it all wrong. After all, what is to be saved, me? No way! we are talking about the soul. Who truly knows the soul? Those who are in close relationship with God have a better 'knowing' than those who fear exposing themselves to God. If you don't know the soul, all you know is your own life story.


True....but once you do repent it is important to realize that the sacrifice of Messiah Yeshua -Jesus paid your debt in full and your guilt truly is covered and gone.
 
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DennisTate

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With over 200 million Christians in the U.S. in a few dozen or so clearly differing denomination and styles, it's a given that many won't read the scriptures, and so there will be a lot doing very basic mistakes.

So, from not having read the scriptures, many would surely be on a guilt trip for varying reasons -- both for good reasons for some on the one hand, but on the other hand for many from misunderstandings.

We know there will be plenty of both justified guilt (from not having actually repented) and unjustified guilt (from not understanding Grace).

The justified guilt is more important of course -- they would need to learn we are all to confess significant sins (which make us feel guilty by the aid of the Spirit convicting us about sin) to God our Father, as we are instructed in 1rst John chapter 1. Then they can confess. And then, very soon, dance for joy or just be glad and grateful.


For the unjustified guilt -- reading a chapter like Ephesians chapter 2 (if for the first time, perhaps in a helpfully clear modern translation) ought to fix a lot of the unjustified guilt in under 5 minutes, if a person listens and hears what is being said.

In my opinion this is a really good analysis of the types of errors that we all make at one time or another.
 
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KeeperOfMemories

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Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter.
- 1 Corinthians 7:10-11

Repentance is not about dwelling in guilt. The godly "guilt" isn't supposed to make us spiral into self-pity and moan about what wretches we are and how horrible we are. It's supposed to spring us into action to change what we are doing. Repentance isn't about self-pity and feeling down on ourselves--it's about making a change in our lives and turning away from wrong, even if we have to do it again and again.

Imagine you had a friend. This friend is doing something to wrong you. You are hurt very much by it, even though you deeply care for this friend. So, even though it's hard to say, you bring this up to your friend. Which response would you like more?

1.) "I am such a horrible person. I fail at everything. I'm a miserable wretch. I hurt everyone. I don't deserve anything. I need to do penance. I'll make it up to you." and goes on and on in tears.

or

2.) "Oh. This was hard to hear, but I didn't realize how my actions were impacting you. I'm really sorry about this." and then they stop.

Which response would make you feel better?
 
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aiki

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But.... his point was that Messiah Yeshua -Jesus has truly and completely forgiven us.....which is a somewhat different idea.

Yes, he has fully atoned for our sins and by his atonement we obtain forgiveness. About this we should be very joyful and grateful. But about the wrongness of our sin we ought to feel sorrow. Not the self-flagellating, oh-what-a-worm-I-am stuff but a heart-level recognition of the deep depravity and destructiveness of our sin (which we are typically loathe to acknowledge) that drives us toward God, deeper into holy fellowship with Him. Our forgiveness was obtained at a terrible cost to our Saviour. This, too, ought to provoke regret and grief in us. The grace God has showed us is not a cheap grace, costing God nothing. Quite the reverse. And our sorrow over our sin is how we properly acknowledge this.

His teaching is that the blood of Messiah Yeshua - Jesus truly and completely cleanses us from our past sins.

Yes, Christ's shed blood does cleanse us from our sin. Hallelujah! But while this is cause for great joy in the believer, it is appropriate for it to be a source of sorrow, too. Christ's precious blood was shed in atonement for our sin. This is why the writer of Hebrews writes the hard things he does concerning the one who sins willfully:

Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

For those of us who have been saved, the act of willful and persistent disobedience to God is, in God's eyes, tantamount to treading underfoot the Son of God, treating as unholy the shed blood of Christ and despising the Spirit of grace. In light of this, we ought to treat sin with great seriousness! These days, however, the trend in teaching and preaching is to downplay sin; really, to avoid talking about it altogether. This is a spiritually dangerous trend within the Church - just as dangerous as those who want to bind believers in endless guilt and shame over their sin.
 
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Mountainmanbob

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We should always take sin seriously

I know three that didn't.
Thought they were good to go on with their sin.
All three are in prison now.

Running with the devil can take one to places they don't want to be. Sin tasted like fun for a brief period.

M-Bob
 
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Mountainmanbob

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You mean like this?:
Bad news: "Your house will be set on fire with you in it!"
Good new: "I will save you from that fire....if you believe the bad news....and oh by the way, I created that fire"

Is News truly good, that depends on the introduction and belief of Bad news before it is considered good?

I can't find one?
Do you happen to have a Bible verse?
I like to stick to the Bible.
M-Bob
 
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AvisG

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It is bad news before it's good news.

After many, many years on various Christian forums and in Christian communities, in my observation the sequence is often more like: Bad news ... good news ... seemingly endless doubting, worrying, sniping, fighting and self-flagellation ... all of which renders the supposed good news rather hollow.

But we are not naturally good and we need to know it.

By definition, as finite created beings we incapable of God's perfect holiness. The best of us falls short of the glory of God. Naturally good? My experience of myself, and I believe most peoples' experience of other people if they were honest about it, is that most people are in fact naturally good. Flawed, certainly. Not holy, certainly. But not naturally good? No.

As the OP suggested, I believe the unnecessary overemphasis on the "woeful depravity" of humans is ultimately counterproductive. At some level, people know it's just false. Religion generates as much woeful depravity as it eliminates, and most people can see this.

Trying to bring people to God through guilt really works no better than guilt trips work in any other context.
 
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renniks

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Trying to bring people to God through guilt really works no better than guilt trips work in any other context.
I'm not talking about guilt trips. I'm talking about knowing who we are, according to God and scripture. We are naturally sinful. If we don't know, we will fall for our false selves. Sin is always pride at its root.
 
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RaymondG

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It is bad news before it's good news. If you don't know you are broken, why would you go to Someone who can repair your brokenness? And if you ever get to the point where you think you are no longer broken, you are only deceiving yourself and setting yourself up for a fall. That doesn't mean we constantly go around moaning "Woe is me!" But we are not naturally good and we need to know it.
There are scam artists that come out during tax season, who use the method you describe.

They come to you with fear and bad news: Your accounts have been closed and you are accused of tax fraud and evasions. Cops will be coming to your door step! (oh No!what must I do, you say)

Then comes the good new: You can be saved by paying this about of money, via gift cards and your record will be made clean and all the bad news is erase.(Whew, Im saved now, you say)

The Gospel Of Jesus Christ should, IN NO WAY, resemble the gospel of scammers.

If a person is unaware of being broken before talk to you........and feels broken after hearing your news? Then it is you who breaks them and, maybe, sharing the Good news should be left to someone else.
 
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RaymondG

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You can be the riches, healthiest person in the world....and feel that you have no sin in you and know nothing about a Hell......And the Good news of being in Jesus Christ will still feel like a Greater position than you could of ever imagined being in.

Woe to you who only desire Christ to avoid alternatives.
 
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RaymondG

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I can't find one?
Do you happen to have a Bible verse?
I like to stick to the Bible.
M-Bob
What is it that you are looking for, so that I can help you find it?

Your first response was equally confusing.....maybe you can edit it?
 
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brinny

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Why would we turn away from our sins if we didn't experience the guilt of committing them?
It's "conviction" from God's Holy Spirit, convicting us, so that we repent.

It's not "guilt" that drives us to repent. Only "Godly sorrow" does.
 
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