Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"
- Thread starter BABerean2
- Start date
Maybe I need to make another distinction as well. I'm referring to modern Rabbinic Judaism we have today - based on the Babylonian Talmud.
From linked article:
Obeying the mitzvot and performing acts of loving kindness are the new sacrifices of the Jewish people, the new way of atonement, leaving behind burnt lambs, oxen, and cereal offerings.
Today, there are profound differences among the various Jewish denominations within Rabbinic Judaism concerning the binding nature of Halakhah, as well as a growing willingness to challenge or even revise preceding interpretations. Still, nearly all forms of modern Judaism are rooted in the Rabbinic method of analysis and subsequent theology. - What does "Post-Rabbinic" mean? The Judaism "Up the Road"
Last edited:
Upvote
0
sovereigngrace
Well-Known Member
- Dec 9, 2019
- 9,042
- 3,450
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
I will try. LOL.
Exactly, this reinforces my point. Natural ethnic credentials no longer carry any merit with God!
No one is writing off the Jews. All I am saying is their Jewishness means nothing before God.
I have given you clear Scripture that you don't seem to have no answer for. Under the new covenant, Gentile believers are being integrated into the citizenship of Israel. They are being grafted into the good Israeli olive tree upon salvation. They are being added to the household of Israel through faith in Israel’s Messiah. They are now living stones in the New Testament temple. This renewed and expanded Israel includes countless Gentiles from all the nations of the world. The elect of God has grown from one single small physical nation in the Old Testament to incorporating millions of believers throughout the world today.
You don't seem to grasp what this is meaning. Romans 11:28 declares: “As concerning the gospel, they (Christ-rejecting Jews) are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election (God’s people), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.”
No one could argue that all natural Israelis are “enemies” as “concerning the gospel.” After all, many have gladly embraced Christ over this past 2,000 years, because of this they are intimately loved of the Father. They are not enemies of God, but rather friends. This fits Paul’s ongoing comparison between those who are loved by God amongst his kinsmen, and those who are enemies. These two distinct groups operate under two antithetical banners: “enemies” and “the election.” The enemies are the general Christ-rejecting populace of natural Israel. The election are the believers.
Scottish pastor Eric J Alexander expounded it like this: “How can God reject the people whom He foreknew? You can no more imagine God saying those whom He foreknew He later rejected than you can imagine Him saying those whom He predestined He later rejected. These are unbreakable chains!” Basically, Paul is demonstrating that God doesn’t turn His back on His elect.
It is difficult to know, and foolish to speculate, too what amount of natural Jews in this day and at the end will come through for Christ. However, whether Scripture indicates the whole nation, the majority of natural Jews or a small remnant of natural Israelites will be saved is largely God’s prerogative. Notwithstanding, it is sufficient to settle upon the trust of the great chief Shepherd.
Two races, but one spiritual people from the beginning.
This is theological double speak. You obviously know you are fighting with the sacred text! It is clear for all those who are not indoctrinated with Dispensational teaching.
Once again, the natural designations are repeatedly shown to mean nothing. The spiritual designations that were near exclusively restricted to natural Israelites have now been placed upon the Gentiles by faith. Popular Old Testament terms like “the children of Abraham, “Israel,” “Jews,” “the circumcision” and “Zion” (“Sion”) that overwhelmingly described the Hebrew offspring of Abraham in the Old Testament are now employed under the new arrangement in a wider spiritual sense.
Judaism today is apostate. It rejects Christ - man's only sacrifice for sin. The NT Church is true believing Israel today. We are the true Jews. We are the circumcision in God’s eyes. We are the chosen people. We are the children of Abraham. The elect Jews (the remnant) in Christ's time embraced Christ and were integrated into the wider transnational Church (of all races). This was always God's plan - right back to the book of Genesis. The true believer since the beginning belongs to Jesus Christ (the Messiah - the anointed One). Through faith in Him as man's only substitute for sin they make it to heaven. The unbeliever rejects Him and goes to hell.
We have joined faithful Israel, not replaced them. Thankfully, repentant Jews are still being grafted into the good olive tree.
Race means nothing. Please come out from under the abolished old covenant.
You teach ‘Separation Theology’. You segregate the people of God of all time. You construct a radical unbridgeable distinction, and racial apartheid, between Israel and the New Testament Church. You contend that God has got two separate and unique spiritual peoples who are totally unconnected in their identity, character, destiny, and relationship to Him. Natural Israel is said to be God’s earthly people.
I am seeing a pattern: you are careful to ignore text after text, but rather choose classic sweeping Dispy soundbites.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
thomas_t
Blessings Collector
Hi Gal
John is included in Israel. However, Israel isn't limited to messianic Jews. That's why Paul said in Romans 11:27 that Jesus will take their sins away.
Since all non-Messianic Jews don't accept Christ's sacrifice, their sins are still there.
I said this often in our dialogue...
Thomas
Even if the people of the kingdom may have changed... this does not replace Israel.
Israel belongs to Israel since 1948 (most of the land at least). It's their land.
I'm merely citing Bible.
John is included in Israel. However, Israel isn't limited to messianic Jews. That's why Paul said in Romans 11:27 that Jesus will take their sins away.
Since all non-Messianic Jews don't accept Christ's sacrifice, their sins are still there.
I said this often in our dialogue...
Thomas
Upvote
0
thomas_t
Blessings Collector
Hi SG
I don't fight with the sacred text, as you suggest.
I am not careful to ignore text after text, as you suggest.
I don't choose "classic sweeping Dispy soundbites", as you suggest.
I don't teach apartheid. Every Jew can become a Christian. I don't segregate them.
You even go on to say:
Please don't write pages in answering me. I also try to keep my comments short, I don't have unlimited time ressources. Thanks,
Thomas
Romans 11:28 teaches otherwise. Note this verse is about those outside the kingdom. Within the kingdom your 1000 verses saying "there is no Gentile nor Jew" are right.
as I've told you, this is solely your interpretation of Ephesians 2:29. However, Israel isn't mentioned there. So we disagree here. Gentile believers are integrated into the olive. Olive doesn't mean Israel in the New Covenant. It's not all the same. If God's imagery always meant the same... why would God use different metaphors then. One metaphor would be enough, I suppose.
I don't fight with the sacred text, as you suggest.
I am not careful to ignore text after text, as you suggest.
I don't choose "classic sweeping Dispy soundbites", as you suggest.
I don't teach apartheid. Every Jew can become a Christian. I don't segregate them.
You even go on to say:
that's replacement theology at its best (worst).
The Christian church didn't exist before Jesus's death + resurrection. I'm not interested in other churches.
Bible says all Israel is. Romans 11:28.
in Romans 11:28 it's enemies of the Gospel that are still elected, you even posted the verse yourself.
Please don't write pages in answering me. I also try to keep my comments short, I don't have unlimited time ressources. Thanks,
Thomas
Upvote
0
sovereigngrace
Well-Known Member
- Dec 9, 2019
- 9,042
- 3,450
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Again, you don't address my points or exegete the passage. It is frustrating discussing with someone who just wants to justify a doctrine. There is no reasoning. I will repeat (because it has not been addressed):
No one could argue that all natural Israelis are “enemies” as “concerning the gospel.” After all, many have gladly embraced Christ over this past 2,000 years, because of this they are intimately loved of the Father. They are not enemies of God, but rather friends. This fits Paul’s ongoing comparison between those who are loved by God amongst his kinsmen, and those who are enemies. These two distinct groups operate under two antithetical banners: “enemies” and “the election.” The enemies are the general Christ-rejecting populace of natural Israel. The election are the believers.
The context of the passage in view is basically comparing the dark hopeless condition the Gentiles were in before the cross to the liberated enlightened position those who embraced Christ were after the cross. It is only upon conversion that our sins are washed away and the blood of Jesus becomes effectual. Through Calvary, the believing Gentile has been brought into a new dominion and therefore enjoys a new citizenship, with its consequential new benefits. The believing Gentile has been given favor with God and has now fully entered into:
· Christ
· The citizenship of Israel
· The covenants of promise
· Spiritual hope
· Union with God in this present world
This passage is speaking of five distinct, yet inextricably linked, states of alienation that the Gentile believer once suffered before they received the glorious Gospel of Christ. Paul the Apostle makes it clear that all five have been graciously opened up to the Gentiles since Christ’s first advent. The Gentile believer can now experience God in the same way the Jew could prior to the cross through their surrender to Christ and their trust in “the blood of Christ.” Please see: these 5 blessings are what elect OT Israel enjoyed before the cross. We see the incorporation of the once darkened Gentiles into true Israel. They now share with Israel and its Messiah, citizenship, covenants, promises, hope and God.”
Paul states in Romans 2:25-29: “For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit (pneuma).”
Paul basically spiritualizes the terms circumcision and Jew to mean believer, and uncircumcision or Gentile to mean unbeliever. He teaches, if a man accepts Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual Jew (or true circumcision); if a man rejects Christ (regardless of his ethnicity) he is a spiritual heathen (or true uncircumcision). Essentially: Gentiles become true Jews through faith in Jesus, and Jews forfeit their right to be considered true Jews if they reject Jesus.
Philippians 3:3, speaking of the Church generally, says, “For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the Spirit [Gr. pneuma], and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”
The title “the circumcision” wasn’t just a natural description of what the Jew had undergone physically, it was an actual designation for the Jews. The phrase “the circumcision” meant and was equivalent to the term “the Jews.” They were synonymous. It is the same with spiritual usage of the term in the New Testament “the circumcision” when referring to all God’s people. It doesn’t just refer to the spiritual act of circumcising the heart, then term became a description of the New Testament Church.
The interesting thing about Philippians 3:3 is that the Holy Spirit takes a common natural term pertaining exclusively to the Jews and applies it to the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ – all those that have been born again of the Spirit of God (whether Jew or Gentile). Hence, a people that are by nature uncircumcised are here strangely described as “the circumcision.”
Exactly, after defining who true Israel is in Rom 9:6-7 and after showing that we Gentiles have been integrated into the Israeli tree (faithful believing Israel).
Last edited:
Upvote
0
- Feb 24, 2002
- 15,534
- 4,827
- 57
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
What proof do you have of this?
Since every Jew alive today is either a Gentile Convert, or a descendant of Gentile Converts, to the Post-Christian, man made religion of Talmudic Judaism, how can they be the Continuation of Biblical Israel?
They share nothing in common with the Hebrews of the Bible... they do not have their DNA (any more than we ALL do), they do not practice the same religion, they do not have the same government... they bear no resemblance at all to the Biblical Hebrews.
So, again, How is it you can make the claim above?
Is it strictly geographical?
Is the Dirt under their feet all you have?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
thomas_t
Blessings Collector
look, when you write two pages, I try to respond to all the points. But I have to be quick. I might miss one or two.
So I will have a look at it again
SG, I did adress this. I said Bible argues that all Israel is an enemy of the Gospel! Romans 11:28. If Bible says so, I will say so.
oh yeah, I didn't adress this yet in an answer to you. Messianic Jews aren't enemies, here we agree. All Israel is. But Messianic Jews are only a part of Israel. A part not strong enough to convert all Israel into friends of the Gospel.
they are as antithetical as it gets. In Romans 11:28 we read of enemies getting elected. Both. I told you, no?
Then you answered I didn't grasp what this passage was saying, I think I did. It frankly claims enemies getting elected.
I did adress this, too. Ephesians 2:19 doesn't mention Israel, so I think it is not the Israeli citizenship they have.
nowhere in this passage does it say Christians are Jews now. Read again!
no. Read the passage again, please.
That doesn't tranform them into Israelis or Jews. Let's compare it to (physical) circumcision: I'm also circumcized physically. For medical reasons. This doesn't make me anything close to Jewish.
What I'm trying to convey: there are physical circumcised Non-Jews, whose circumcision wasn't meant to be Jewish. Similarly, there could be spiritually circumcized Jews, and Non-Jews who are also spiritually circumcized. Where does it say in the Bible that spiritual circumcision is limited to Jews only?
Nope. Folks lie Nebuchadnezzar worshipped God in the Holy Spirit, too, see Daniel 4:34. They never were Jewish.
Your theology seems to be lumping them all together, but Bible knows more shades, in my opinion.
Now you agree that faithful believing Israel is an enemy of the Gospel? Never said that. I said that all Israel is an enemy of the Gospel. 9:6 doesn't do the defining who Israel is, in my opinion. I says who it is not.
Upvote
0
I doubt that you see this statement the way I do, but to me, this blatantly denies the power of God to redeem and restore (and also denies His fulfillment of the Messianic prophecies).
Do you recall something in the Bible about the mustard seed & the ability to move mountains?
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
There's only ONE way sin is forgiven - this applies to ALL (the sin of the whole world - as recorded in John):
Romans 5:8 - But God proves His love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Upvote
0
sovereigngrace
Well-Known Member
- Dec 9, 2019
- 9,042
- 3,450
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
All Israel is not an enemy of God, there is an elect true Israel that is beloved of God (as there is in every nation), the rest are rejected of God and are enemies. You fail to accept the two groups of Israelis.
You have wrongly convinced yourself that there is only a natural Israel, a natural children of Abraham, natural Jews, natural circumcision and natural earthly Zion. But the NT spiritualizes all these terms and applies them to believing Jews and Gentiles. You skip around this clear NT reality. The NT shows that those who reject Christ are not chosen of God but are rather off their "father the devil" (John 8: 39-44). Jesus also exposed those who boast that they are Jews but who are not. He exposed them as those “which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan” (Revelation 2:9, 3:9).
It is important that believers recognize the difference between national Israel and true Israel in both testaments or they may become confused with the unfolding of God’s plan in the New Testament.
In Romans 2:25-29, Paul reveals a profound spiritual truth how physically uncircumcised Gentiles are viewed as the circumcised, and physically circumcised Jews are viewed as uncircumcised. This seems contradictory and mistaken. After all Jews are Jews and Gentiles are Gentiles. In a natural sense this is true, but in a spiritual sense this isn’t. Paul goes on to prove this. He shows how the title “Jew” and “circumcision” are choice spiritual titles that relate alone to the redeemed of God.
The interesting thing about Philippians 3:3 is that the Holy Spirit takes a common natural term pertaining exclusively to the Jews and applies it to the redeemed Church of Jesus Christ – all those that have been born again of the Spirit of God (whether Jew or Gentile). Hence, a people that are by nature uncircumcised are here strangely described as “the circumcision.”
So, what does this term mean? And why is it applied to physically uncircumcised people? There is no doubt it is employed in a spiritual sense to describe a spiritual people. It is referring to spiritual Jews/Israelites. Obviously, it is not being employed in its normal literal physical sense. So, it cannot be referring to natural Jews/Israelites, because that is an issue of physical birthright. Christians do not become natural Jews upon salvation but spiritual Jews. What Paul is saying therefore is, “For we are the true Jews, which worship God in the Spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.”
Both Philippians 3 and Romans 2 purposely and significantly restrict the terms “the circumcision” and “Jew” to those today that are “in the spirit” or pneuma. Only those who are born again of the Spirit of God can fit the criteria. Anyway, there are (and have only ever been), two types of people on this earth, those that are (1) “in the flesh” and those who are “in the Spirit.” The Word of God makes clear: “if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his” (Romans 8:9). New Testament teaching repeatedly, and powerfully, blows apart any form of Jewish nationalism.
Upvote
0
sovereigngrace
Well-Known Member
- Dec 9, 2019
- 9,042
- 3,450
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
The Hebrew words that are used in the Old Testament to describe the overall company of the children of Israel are qâhâl and ‛êdâh. These words are usually translated, and mean, “congregation” or “assembly.” But, the Old Testament was not just written in Hebrew; it was also written in Greek. Interestingly, the Greek translation of the Old Testament (the Septuagint or LXX) normally uses the word ekklesia (from ek- + kaleo, meaning “to call”) in place of these two Hebrew words to describe the gathering of the congregation of old covenant Israel. The word ekklesia literally means ‘the called-out assembly’. Notwithstanding: there are some instances where the Greek Old Testament translators use the word sunagoge to represent the same Hebrew words.
When you examine the usage of qâhâl and ‛êdâh in the Old Testament, you discover that they are interchangeably used throughout the ancient text and are considered by most Hebrew scholars to be synonymous, even though they are based on different root words. There are even times when these same or similar Hebrew words are linked together in the same text in order to describe ‘the congregating [verb] of the congregation [noun]’ or ‘the assembling [verb] of the assembly [noun]’. Number 20:1-13 is a case-in-point. This should help us understand the true meaning and origin of the Greek word ekklesia. When used in a religious sense, we are basically looking at the congregation or assembly of God’s people. The word ekklesia can apply to a secular gathering, so the translator’s insistence upon the word “Church” is misplaced and not an appropriate rendering of the word.
The exact same Greek word used in the Greek Old Testament (ekklesia) is also used in the Greek New Testament to describe God’s people. This is no mere coincidence. It shows us the practical and spiritual connection and link between both. It is therefore right and reasonable for us to understand and translate the word in a similar vein in the New Testament. We should remember that it was the believing remnant of the Old Testament ekklesia of Israel (true Israel) that in fact became the infant New Testament Church (ekklesia or congregation or assembly). The Gospel was actually received and embraced by those among natural Israel who had eyes to see and ears to hear.
Granted, whether one interprets ekklesia as “congregation,” “assembly,” “gathering” or “Church” does not change the overall New Testament reality. The fact remains, the word still describes the same overall religious company. But what is sure: the forceful, undeniable and consistent evidence before us proves that the ekklesia refers to the gathering of God’s people throughout all ages.
Upvote
0
sovereigngrace
Well-Known Member
- Dec 9, 2019
- 9,042
- 3,450
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Married
Let the text speak for itself! Please stop explaining Scripture away to fit your school of thought. Ephesians 2:11-13 declares, “Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth [Gr. politeia or citizenship] of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."
Paul is speaking specifically to Ephesian Gentile Christians. Paul introduces his letter in Ephesians 1:1 by saying: “Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus.” He then goes on in Ephesians 2:11 to state: “ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands.” This is absolute proof of who the apostle is speaking to. It is also helpful when analyzing what he is teaching.
The word rendered “commonwealth” in the King James Version here is the Greek word politeia (Strong’s 4174) which means citizenship or community. This passage illustrates how Gentile Christians in this New Testament era have graciously entered into “the citizenship of Israel” through the work of Christ.
This passage speaks of God bringing natural Israelis together with natural Gentiles into the exact same standing and privileges. In fact, in this new covenant age they are classed as “one body” and “one new man.” How can this be? What are the grounds for this union? Is it speaking of a natural or spiritual reality? There can be no doubt by the clarity and straightforwardness of this narrative that Jews and Gentiles are joined together in this passage on the sole grounds of “the blood of Christ.” This is the only means of cleansing and freedom God knows or accepts.
Ephesians 2:19 shows that faithful Gentiles are “no more strangers and foreigners” (as in literal outsiders), but rather have become real active participating “fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.” Through Christ, they enjoy a common “citizenship of Israel.” They are no longer alienated. There is no distinction between them in Christ.
Jews and Gentiles finish up sharing the same citizenship and enjoying the same blessings. Gentiles are described as being “fellowcitizens” with Jews through the sovereign work of the Lord. What is this citizenship? It is plainly and unambiguously identified in the reading as “the citizenship of Israel.” God did not create a new Israel; the Gentiles were grafted into an existing organism.
We should carefully note: to belong to “the citizenship of Israel” requires saving faith. This proves that we are looking at a spiritual organism. What is more, natural birthright means absolutely nothing in regards to participating in this spiritual entity. Significantly, the people of God of all races have been integrated into true Israel – spiritual Israel, not natural Christ-rejecting Israel. Those Jews that made up the membership of the early Church – faithful Israel, have been joined by faithful Gentiles throughout the nations under the select designation of “the citizenship of Israel.”
Upvote
0
Sovereign Grace said:
This is an example of the True Israel (but they aren't addressed as "Christians"). If God were "on board" with that distinction (Christ followers in the first century Jerusalem being called "Christians" and apostate Jews in Jerusalem at the same time/same era remaining as the only "Israel") don't you think we could find that by the inspired text *somewhere*? Remember that when Saul was converted - it's recorded that his name on conversion was changed to "Paul" - so why don't we see it as recorded that Christ followers were given a new name as you assert?Thomas T said:
Instead of being concerned about being quick to respond - since these aren't MY words, but words from the Bible - I sincerely hope you'll read all these following words and give them some genuine contemplation.
Acts 2
Genesis 11:1-9; Leviticus 23:15-22; John 14:15-26; John 16:5-16)
1When the day of Pentecosta came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like a mighty rushing wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw tongues like flames of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them.5Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. 6And when this sound rang out, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking his own language.7Astounded and amazed, they asked, “Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? 8How is it then that each of us hears them in his own native language? 9Parthians, Medes, and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,b 10Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome, 11both Jews and converts to Judaism; Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!”12Astounded and perplexed, they asked one another, “What does this mean?”
Peter Preaches to the Crowd
(Psalm 16:1-11; Joel 2:28-32)
14Then Peter stood up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice, and addressed the crowd: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen carefully to my words. 15These men are not drunk as you suppose. It is only the third hour of the day!c 16No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:17‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out My Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.18Even on My menservants and maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.19I will show wonders in the heavens above
and signs on the earth below,
blood and fire and billows of smoke.20The sun will be turned to darkness,
and the moon to blood,
before the coming of the great and glorious Day of the Lord.21And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved.’d22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know. 23He was delivered up by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross. 24But God raised Him from the dead, releasing Him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for Him to be held in its clutches.25David says about Him:
‘I saw the Lord always before me;
because He is at my right hand,
I will not be shaken.26Therefore my heart is glad
and my tongue rejoices;
my body also will dwell in hope,27because You will not abandon my soul to Hades,
nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.28You have made known to me the paths of life;
You will fill me with joy in Your presence.’e29Brothers, I can tell you with confidence that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that He would place one of his descendants on his throne. 31Foreseeing this, David spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that He was not abandoned to Hades, nor did His body see decay. 32God has raised this Jesus to life, to which we are all witnesses.33Exalted, then, to the right hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend into heaven, but he himself says:
‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand35until I make Your enemies
a footstool for Your feet.”’f36Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and asked Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39This promise belongs to you and your children and to all who are far off—to all whom the Lord our God will call to Himself.”40With many other words he testified, and he urged them, “Be saved from this corrupt generation.” 41Those who embraced his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to the believers that day.g
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
keras
Writer of studies on Bible prophecy
- Feb 7, 2013
- 13,680
- 2,491
- 82
- Country
- New Zealand
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- Married
thomas_t said: ↑
I stay with my opinion: Israel is Israel, and the Christians are the Christians. Messianics belong to both groups.
I agree.
Doug
A classic demonstration of the error and confusion of you both.
Messianic Christians? A synonum, words with the same meaning.
It seems that people are incapable of understanding plain scriptural truths.
There is only ONE people of God; John 10:16, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
Ovrer 20 prophesies tell of the virtual demise of the reprobate and recidivist Jewish people. Only a remnant of the Jews who are Christians now, will survive.
I stay with my opinion: Israel is Israel, and the Christians are the Christians. Messianics belong to both groups.
I agree.
Doug
A classic demonstration of the error and confusion of you both.
Messianic Christians? A synonum, words with the same meaning.
It seems that people are incapable of understanding plain scriptural truths.
There is only ONE people of God; John 10:16, Ephesians 4:4-6, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
Ovrer 20 prophesies tell of the virtual demise of the reprobate and recidivist Jewish people. Only a remnant of the Jews who are Christians now, will survive.
Upvote
0
Douggg
anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
- May 28, 2009
- 28,776
- 3,419
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Private
Change it to one people in Christ, as the text indicates, and you would be right - at least about that part in interpreting the text. The current unbelieving Jews will become in Christ in the middle of the 7 years.
Israel, on the other hand, is the blood descendants of the 12 tribes. Israel is Israel. Christians are Christians. Messianics are of both groups, i.e. blood descendants of the 12 tribes who are in Christ.
Upvote
0
thomas_t
Blessings Collector
Now that Jews have been persecuted for the last 1900 years, at least, this counts as proof.
Your theology claiming that Jews aren't Jews any more, unless tehy turn to Christ... is dangerous, in my opinion. It's basically saying the Jew isn't a Jew anymore and this is being aggressive against them. It means stripping them from their identity of being Jewish.
Thomas
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
thomas_t
Blessings Collector
SG, you're hurling elephants.
You know that I don't have enough time to read all through your pages of new theology, and then you even complain when I failed to address one single point according to you. You can't just overcharge my time resources and later claim victory.
Please keep your answer short. Three answers a page each isn't short. It's too much!
Especially when you copy-paste your same stuff again after I've addressed it already (see below).
first off: I don't explain Scripture away to fit some school of thought. I'm pointing to it.
I don't fail to accept the two gourps of Israelis - saved and unsaved individuals. Massianic Jews or not. I regognize the difference.
So you can't back up your claims that Christians have citizenship of Israel by now.
Circumcision is not the same as citizenship of Israel/ being a Jew, either.
You know that I don't have enough time to read all through your pages of new theology, and then you even complain when I failed to address one single point according to you. You can't just overcharge my time resources and later claim victory.
Please keep your answer short. Three answers a page each isn't short. It's too much!
Especially when you copy-paste your same stuff again after I've addressed it already (see below).
first off: I don't explain Scripture away to fit some school of thought. I'm pointing to it.
I don't fail to accept the two gourps of Israelis - saved and unsaved individuals. Massianic Jews or not. I regognize the difference.
according to you (bolded terms). But Israel is still Israel.
did you read Romans 11:28? enemies of the Gospel are chosen there. How often do I have to tell you again?
That's one single example of Jews falsely so called. You can't infer from them to all unsaved Jews.
There is none. The Jews living outside of Israel also belong to them.
The spiritual Jew is a spiritual Jew. The spiritual Christian... is a spiritual Christian. It's simple.
you already wrote these lines! you copy pasted your stuff twice! I can't believe it. I answered this in my last reply to you. I wrote this:
Romans 11:28 says they are an enemy of the Gospel.
Ephesians 2:19 doesn't mention Israel. This is the passage you refer to if you come to talk about the Christians having been granted a citizenship in a nation.
So you can't back up your claims that Christians have citizenship of Israel by now.
Circumcision is not the same as citizenship of Israel/ being a Jew, either.
sure. But they weren't a Christian congregation. There are many congrgations out there.
Again, folks like Nebuchadnezzar didn't belong to the Jewish congregation. He was outside. Yet his faith was great! So we're going round in circles here, aren't we.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
