Mixed messages on sin

Doubting Brutus said:

I've been researching the subject a little bit and I'm confused. When Christians talk of 'our sins' are they talking about the Sin we're born with or the little sins/transgressions that we commit every day? When one is baptised, christened.etc is it our inherited sin we're washing away alone or is it our Sin and our little sins or is it just our little sins and not our inherited Sin?

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There is a difference between the Western and Eastern views of original sin, i.e., "the sin we're born with". The Western view holds generally that all mankind inherits the guilt of Adam's sin and that guilt is erased through baptism. The Eastern view holds that through Adam we are born with a propensity to sin, built guilt is only imputed for the sins we actually commit. In either view, baptism erases all guilt of sin prior to baptism.

Doubting Brutus said:

I've been researching the subject a little bit and I'm confused. When Christians talk of 'our sins' are they talking about the Sin we're born with or the little sins/transgressions that we commit every day? When one is baptised, christened.etc is it our inherited sin we're washing away alone or is it our Sin and our little sins or is it just our little sins and not our inherited Sin?

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Those who believe infant baptism is essential obviously think it is dealing with so-called original sin. Adult baptism is more of a public expression of union with Christ, although there are varying understandings of exactly what the symbolism is. It is Christ who washes away the guilt of sin, not baptism. Baptism may be understood as symbolizing what Christ has accomplished, but it doesn't do the washing away.

"Original sin" is one of the most confused, confusing and debated of doctrines. Much of the confusion is attributable to Augustine. I believe it is best understood as an inherited "propensity" to sin.

(Actually, I believe the entire Adam and Eve account is not a historical "newspaper report" describing what happened and why humans have a propensity to sin. I believe it is a long after-the-fact attempt to come to grips with the observable fact that human nature is fundamentally flawed and humans do have a mysterious propensity to sin. It captures the spiritual truth that all humans sin rather than explaining why they do.)

Most Protestants, at least, do not divide sin into big and little sin. There is simply sin. Because God is perfectly holy, anything less than perfect holiness causes an estrangement from God. Regardless of whether we think we are "as good as anyone else" or "better than most," we should be able to acknowledge that we're far short of holy and in need of God's grace.

You'd really have to know whether a speaker was Eastern Orthodox, Catholic or Protestant to understand what he or she meant by "our sins." Most of the time, I think, all three categories are talking about the individual sins we all commit (perhaps due in part to a genetic propensity to sin).

shalom

Doubting Brutus said:

I've been researching the subject a little bit and I'm confused. When Christians talk of 'our sins' are they talking about the Sin we're born with or the little sins/transgressions that we commit every day? When one is baptised, christened.etc is it our inherited sin we're washing away alone or is it our Sin and our little sins or is it just our little sins and not our inherited Sin?

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The apostle Paul described his state (after his conversion) in the book of Romans. He described it as indwelling sin, he noticed that he was doing things he didn't want to do.
Romans 7:19-25 King James Version (KJV)
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul makes it clear that we will continue to sin until the day we die, but we don't sin in a unrestrained manner as we did before our conversion.

Unconverted people, don't mourn or grieve over their sin as believers do. Jesus eluded to this in His sermon on the mount, when He said "blessed are the poor in spirit".

As followers of Christ, we can't enjoy sin any longer and the more "Christ like" we become the more we hate sin.

So we will continue to wrestle against our "flesh", until we receive our glorified sinless bodies in the life to come.

shalom

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Maybe not in such a way...

when a football player is on one team, do they then play for the opponent unless bribed ?

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We don't need to be bribed, we all sin because we are sinners. So it's impossible to stop sinning while we live in a corrupt body of death,

Doubting Brutus said:

I'm confused.

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I would suggest asking the Christian to clarify what they mean by sin etc.
I would also suggest checking out the christianityexplored web site for a church neer you running this course and sign up.

You are not committed to anything by doing so and it gives you a chance to talk with others about Christianity, while also meeting people from that church.
Face to face discussions are far bettwer than using a forum.

shalom

Dan1988 said:

We don't need to be bribed, we all sin because we are sinners. So it's impossible to stop sinning while we live in a corrupt body of death,

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And yet the Lord commands us this:


Would He command us to something that is an impossibility? Would not failing to meet that standard be a sin in and of itself?

Dan1988 said:

We don't need to be bribed, we all sin because we are sinners. So it's impossible to stop sinning while we live in a corrupt body of death,

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SO when If Jesus were to come to you and say this:
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Would you respond with this:

Dan1988 said:

it's impossible to stop sinning while we live in a corrupt body of death,

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????

Dave-W said:

Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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I believe Jesus uses extreme hyperbole, including unachievable standards, in numerous places in the Gospels. Know any Bible literalists who have plucked out their eyes? The underlying message, I believe, is that God's standards are far higher than anything humans can reach through their own efforts.

Doubting Brutus said:

I've been researching the subject a little bit and I'm confused. When Christians talk of 'our sins' are they talking about the Sin we're born with or the little sins/transgressions that we commit every day? When one is baptised, christened.etc is it our inherited sin we're washing away alone or is it our Sin and our little sins or is it just our little sins and not our inherited Sin?

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Since your looking into this let me go a bit further. There are three types of sins in the old testament, Sins of accidental transgression, sins of weakness and passion, and sins of rebellion. In the OT, a sacrifice could only cover accidental transgression. Jesus's sacrifice forgave accidental transgression and sins of weakness and passion. Sins of rebellion cannot be forgiven while one is in rebellion.

Second Temple Judaism (After the captivity -> Jesus) had the belief that mankind had become corrupted in nature. This belief predominated second temple literature regarding why man is wicked. Much after the second temple period the contested theology of original sin was developed, the idea that we are born under guilt. That isn't so much important as our sin nature is, which is much discussed in the NT and second temple literature. In Romans 7 Paul likens our sin nature as a corpse shackled to our spirit. He further divides that sin nature from us as two distinct entities at war. He says what I want to do I do not do, and I do what I don't want to do. He says it is our spirit that will receive grace while the sin nature will die in the end and be replaced with a new body that does not contend with our spirit at the resurrection. But for this earthly life one is always chained to that corpse, and ones ability to withstand it is a special provision provided by the Holy Spirit. We are going to succumb to it, but grace is provided for us while our spirit seeks God in opposition to what our sin nature seeks. Since the doctrine of original sin was developed much later, the NT writers were not thinking of it, but rather our corrupted nature that causes our spirit to yield to it.

We are not forgiven of sins in the baptism. It is a ritual in reference to the flood where mankind's heart grew only toward wickedness. The baptism is like being knighted. It is a ceremony of loyalty where you commit yourself before man and heaven to God's kingdom, and relinquish your citizenship of the world and it's ruling powers in high places (not government). The baptism is also a ritual representation of washing our sins away, where we pass through the water into new life, separating ourselves from that corpse though still chained.

AvisG said:

I believe, is that God's standards are far higher than anything humans can reach through their own efforts.

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And that is intentional. We are not supposed to rely on our "own efforts." The Holy Spirit empowers us to do the impossible.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Do you have a "single eye" upon Christ ?
Is your body full of light, or darkness ?

(as written in Scripture)

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There are 40,000 Christian denominations, each interprets scripture as they see fit. Does this mean there are 40,000 truths?

Dave-W said:

And yet the Lord commands us this:

Matthew 5:48
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.​

Would He command us to something that is an impossibility? Would not failing to meet that standard be a sin in and of itself?

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I would bet my life that every single Christian alive today has committed many sins and will continue to commit them until they die. I'm not sure what point your trying to make.

shalom

shalom

RaymondG said:

SO when If Jesus were to come to you and say this:
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Would you respond with this:


????

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Jesus would never say say that to me, He made me and He knows I'm not perfect. so the question doesn't make any sense

shalom