Holy “Spirit”? Wrong. That’s Not His Name.

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Der Alte

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Yes the two choices are Spirit of Breath. We just need one clear passage contextually decisive for His TITLE as The Holy Breath such as John 20:22. Fortunately that's not even the only one.
A title doesn't change from verse to verse. Hence we must read that title back into all the parallel passages. Case closed
.
Total rubbish. You don't know what you are talking about. Pneuma is not the only word in Greek that has more than one meaning. You even ignored my quote from BDAG, one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available. I even gave you a clue, the blue highlights which ID the historical sources the authors consulted while determining the correct definition. Unlike common folks scholars don't sit around and make up definitions to fit their presuppositions.
 
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JAL

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Justin, [A.D. 110-165.] Philosopher and Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, a Jew. Chap. XXXVI
For when the rulers of heaven saw Him of uncomely and dishonoured appearance, and inglorious, not recognising Him, they inquired, ‘Who is this King of glory?’ And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, ‘The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.’ For every one will confess that not one of those who presided over the gates of the temple at Jerusalem would venture to say concerning Solomon, though he was so glorious a king, or concerning the ark of testimony, ‘Who is this King of glory?’
Justin speaks of God as a person and the Holy Spirit, not breath, as a person.
Fine, but how does that disprove me? You're misunderstanding post 248. I'm not saying that materialism was necessarily the mindset of those who bought into the Platonic tradition. I'm saying that the ANCIENT mindset has its origins BEFORE Plato and thus the Hebrew mindset doesn't leave us with much choice. Ruach is a term describing an invisible material substance and THAT mindset carried over into the Pneuma of the NT writers. Gen 2:7 is a good example. Charles Hodge admitted that God insufflated into Adam's nostrils the breath (the soul) of life. Hodge then tried to claim it was immateiral soul!

How can God's (intangible?) breath push an (intangible) soul into a body? Doesn't make sense.
 
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JAL

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Total rubbish. You don't know what you are talking about. Pneuma is not the only word in Greek that has more than one meaning.
Um...connect the dots please? Where did I say that pneuma is the only word in Greek with one meaning? And what relevance does that have to the debate?

(I'm at work, making haste, may have missed your point, I apologize).

You even ignored my quote from BDAG, one of, if not, the most highly accredited Greek lexicons available.
Ok but the whole point of this thread is that standard lexicons on 'pneuma' is precisely what I'm debating. I'm saying we can't trust standard lexicons on this issue because there seems to be evidence of Platonic bias. As the Catholic Encyclopedia stated, the early church fathers (and later ones!) put Greek philosophy on a par with Scripture.

I even gave you a clue, the blue highlights which ID the historical sources the authors consulted while determining the correct definition. Unlike common folks scholars don't sit around and make up definitions to fit their presuppositions.
I'll take another look. But I might need your help to grasp the relevance.
 
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JAL

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Der Alter,

I think you're misunderstanding me. I haven't denied that immaterial spirit is a valid usage of the term pneuma as your blue highlights confirmed in the lexicons. I explicitly said that Plato's descendants used that term in the sense of immaterial substance.

Yes that is one POSSIBLE meaning. The question is the degree of exegetical support for that meaning IN THE BIBLE - and from where I'm standing, any serious contextual exegesis repudiates that notion time and again.

But again, I'll take another look at your lexicon.
 
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JAL

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Der Alter.

Ok I looked. Sorry I don't get where citing those lexicons should cause me any concern.

For example take the phrase "drive out spirits". Of course a lexicon is going to say that, because no one today would say "drive out winds" (certaintly not after 2,000 years of Platonic brainwashing). But the phrase "drive out spirits" just means "drive out demons" and should not be presumed material or immaterial. That facet has to be established.

Here's an interesting verse (Psalm 104:4).

"He makes winds [Ruach/Pneuma] his messengers, flames of fire his servants"

The terms wind and fire go together quite well, for example it's difficult to build a fire without wind/air. Naturally, then, God demonstrates His materiality by manifesting in that combination (see Pentecost). But this verse isn't talking about God - it's talking about His SERVANTS. Angels!

Here's how the NKJV renders the verse:

"Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire."

All this is based on a Platonic culture. The proper rendering is:


"Who makes His angels [winds], His ministers a flame of fire."

but the problem is that, after 2,000 years of Platonic brainwashing, the common reader wouldn't realize it's talking about angels. Because no one today says:

"He drove out evil winds."

So the KJV, to make the verse clear, had to leave us with:

"Who makes His angels spirits, His ministers a flame of fire."

That was the best they could do, under the circumstances. Basically, after all those centuries of Platonic dogma, the translators eventually became stuck with it.
 
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JAL

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Der Alter:
Scripture is consistently volumetric:

"The cloud covered the tent of meeting,and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle" .

"When Solomon finished praying, fire came down from heaven and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices, and the glory of the LORD filled the temple."

Notice the Fire consumed the burnt offering. Combustion is a materialistic dynamic.
 
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JAL

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Der Alter:

Grant me a chance to have a turn at philosophical discourse? Okay with you? I'd just like to take an amateur stab at it, if I may.

The technical definition of spirit admits of no extension in space. A spirit has no size and shape. As such, it can have no location in space. And yet supposedly the inner man is localized to the human body? As mentioned earlier, that makes no sense.

From what I can see, such a spirit does not facilitate individuation. If I am not spatially distinct from you, how can we function as individuals? Consider the cross. Recall that it is the soul that suffers pain, not the body, because after all, if your body could still feel pain when the soul is absent, precisely who is feeling that pain? Doesn't make sense. On the cross, Christ experienced pain. How was that pain instigated? Simple. It's a matter of spatial individuation. By targeting the geographical location of Christ's body with an assault, the Romans thereby induced pain. Logically speaking, such dynamics couldn't occur if the soul were an immaterial nothingness devoid of a spatial location.

Spatial individuation facilitates not only pain, but social community. In order to address a particular individual, that is, communicate with him, I target his geographical location with a message of some kind. Even if you conjectured a theory of telepathic waves as an alternate form of communication, the waves would have to target SOMETHING, so we're still talking energy here.

Even the Catholic Encyclopedia admitted that theologians have generally - despite their immaterialism - found themselves prone to incorporate some slivers of materialistic themes to realize a concept of individuation. To summarize: immaterialism furnishes no coherent theory of intercommunication between persons.

I'm aware that Catholic theologians have referred to the soul as "the form of the body" but since they are too vague as to what that means, I cannot accept it as a possible doctrine.

Admittedly in mathematics we designate HYPOTHETICAL points in space without size and shape, but any REAL point in space involves extension.
 
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Der Alte

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Der Alter.
Ok I looked. Sorry I don't get where citing those lexicons should cause me any concern.
Of course not when you dismiss anything you don't like as platonic mumbo-jumbo.
For example take the phrase "drive out spirits". Of course a lexicon is going to say that, because no one today would say "drive out winds" (certaintly not after 2,000 years of Platonic brainwashing). But the phrase "drive out spirits" just means "drive out demons" and should not be presumed material or immaterial. That facet has to be established.
Wind, spirits, and demons are three different things. Once again when you don't like something you don't need any evidence just blow it off as "platonic brainwashing." Convenient coverall for everything.

Here's an interesting verse (Psalm 104:4).
"He makes winds [Ruach/Pneuma] his messengers, flames of fire his servants"
So you think even the OT is full of "platonic brainwashing?"

Here is how the Jewish Publication Society translates Ps 104:4

JPS Psa 104:4 Who makest winds Thy messengers, the flaming fire Thy ministers.
So I guess we can't even trust the Jews their translation is also full of "Platonic brainwashing." I guess the only person in the world who has the true truth is you.
 
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JAL

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Of course not when you dismiss anything you don't like as platonic mumbo-jumbo.
Actually what I dislike is any conclusion deemed fully cogent and yet deficient in evidence and/or rationale.

One of the blatant instances of such travesty lies in the evangelical phrase "the sinful nature". No Greek phrase in the NT can be literally rendered "the sinful nature" - that phrase is the direct result of immaterialistic bias. How so? Paul's actual term for "the sinful nature" is the flesh. And by using that designation, Paul has literally - by means of a single word - annihilated any notion of immaterialism off the table.

For starters, if Paul had wanted to convey an immaterial sinful soul, the word "flesh" is the absolute worst possible choice because it literally screams matter. And the more we delve into Romans 7 an 8, the more it becomes clear that Paul viewed the human body as the actual sinful nature. Why would Paul do that? Because the material soul, is fused to the material body from head to toe. From that standpoint, any part of your body is capable of sinning - maybe later I'll comment briefly on James' discussion of the untameable tongue.

Understandably, then, Paul cries out in Romans 7, "Who will rescue me from this body of death?" Notice Paul doesn't say, "Who will rescue me from this sinful immaterial mind?"

As for regeneration, does it take place in an immaterial mind? Is that what the Holy Breath targets with regenerating Life? Or does He target the physical human body? According to Rom 8:11:

"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."

Now, if this be true, your "sinful nature" actually has a physical shape. It is the shape of your body. That's what Paul confirmed at verse 3:

"God [sent] his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh".

You gotta love Paul, right? He certainly has a way with words. Two obvious things to note here:
(1) As everywhere else, the Greek word for "flesh" here is sarx. It occurs about 150 times in the NT, consistently in reference to animal or human bodies. In fact if you were to study all known languages, I think you'd find their term for "flesh", when used as a literal statement to designate existing substance, is never used for immaterial substance. No Platonist, for example, would ever refer to the immaterial realm as flesh. What is of import here, then, is that Paul accuses the flesh of being a sinner, because he calls it "sinful flesh".
(2) In what sense did Christ come in the likeness of sinful flesh? Did Christ arrive tainted with sin? Obviously what Paul is saying is that Christ came in a distinctive physical shape - the same physical shape as the sinful nature.

Verse 10:
"Your body is dead because of sin."
Physically dead? Did your heart stop? No. He means spiritually dead, that is, unregenerate. This proves that God regenerates the body, not some immaterial soul. This is clear from the very next verse, already cited above:

[He] will also give life to your mortal bodies (verse 11).

Verse 13 confirms the entire schema:

"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

Misdeeds of - the body? My body is what actually sins? But didn't the theologians teach us that it is our immaterial mind that sins? Those theologians haven't been listening to Paul. They've been listening to you-know-who.

Let's roll back to chapter 7:

"For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death" (7:5).

Why didn't he say, "the sinful passions at work in our immaterial minds?" Is he really saying that my actual members are alive? That they consciously indulge in sinful passions? Take a look at Col 3:5:

"Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry."

Put them to death physically? No. Spiritually. Foster in them the regenerating/sanctifying Life of Christ in order to quicken them. This means your body is not a mere machine. It is a moral agent in need of sanctification.
 
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JAL

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Here is how the Jewish Publication Society translates Ps 104:4
JPS Psa 104:4 Who makest winds Thy messengers, the flaming fire Thy ministers.
So I guess we can't even trust the Jews their translation is also full of "Platonic brainwashing." I guess the only person in the world who has the true truth is you.
I'm still scratching my head on this one. (Most of your posts leave me confused and bewildered). Why would you think I'm opposed to that translation?

While the average Christian of today wouldn't see angels in those words, I certainly would. That translation correctly documents the fact that some of God's angels take the form of wind and fire. An angel can assume any physical shape permitted by God whether wind, fire, or anything else.

But the primary reason angels are called ruach/pneuma ("winds"), according to my post 248, is that the Hebrews didn't have many vocabulary options for denoting a (typically) invisible material substance, other then breath/wind. That's the perfect word for them, therefore.
 
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JAL

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My main reply to this post got wiped out but I'll try again, if I can remember what I wrote.
So I guess we can't even trust the Jews their translation is also full of "Platonic brainwashing." I guess the only person in the world who has the true truth is you.
About 20 years ago I asked a Jewish rabbi to comment on the physical radiance of God's face as implied at Ex 33:18-23 (see post 262). It's also implied here:

Numbers 6:24-26 New King James Version (NKJV)
24 “The Lord bless you and keep you;
25 The Lord make His face shine upon you,
And be gracious to you;
26 The Lord lift up His countenance upon you,
And give you peace.” ’

As I recall, the rabbi's reply to me was, "As far as I know, no Jewish scholar believes that God's face radiates physical light."

So I took a couple of seconds today to google for divine Light in judaism. I came accross an article by a rabbi named Matthew Berkowitz of Jewish Theological Seminary, entitled "A Radiant Face"

Obtusely enough, he confuses the physical Light in Moses' face with the cognitive light of intuition/revelation and thus concludes that exegetes, even his own students, can illuminate their own faces by studying the Torah to obtain revelations/intuitions. Thus he regards the light in Moses' face as an immaterial "spiritual light" of a cognitive type. This is obtuse because, just as ordinary fire radiates light (strike a match in a dark room if you doubt it), the pillar of Cloud nightly transformed itself into a pillar of Fire to illuminate the pathways of Israel's journeys. Did these illuminated pathways thereby partake of the light of intuition/revelation? Nonsense. That's a category mistake. God's physical Light is a category distinct from the cognitive light of intuition/revelation.

Admittedly I'll be the first to attest that God's face radiates His physical Light into our brains and bodies to stir up intuitions/revelations. Thus the divine Light is a catalyst for the light of intuition/revelation that gave birth to our saving faith. In other words that's how we all got saved, a fact clearly documented by Paul at 2Cor 4:4-6, although admittedly in Paul's case the Light was so brilliant that it lasered his eyeballs to such an extent of optic damage that physical scales formed over his eyes.

The point is that when even a Jewish rabbi is so blind to the concept of physical Light that he confuses it with the light of intuition/revelation, I cannot help but wonder precisely how ubiquitous is Platonic influence. I guess you'll have to be the one to educate me on that. I myself have no idea.

P.S. I would link to his article but the link didn't seem to work last time.
 
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fwGod

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JAL, because my participation in the discussion regarding controversial matters that amounts to a different gospel.. has gone on long enough.. because you seem to think that I continue to post to you that I'm actually interested in being converted to your thinking....

I intend to show you in the most effective way that I can, that I'm not interested.

Therefore this is my notice. I will not read or respond to any more of your posts to me.
 
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JAL

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JAL, because my participation in the discussion regarding controversial matters that amounts to a different gospel.. has gone on long enough.. because you seem to think that I continue to post to you that I'm actually interested in being converted to your thinking....

I intend to show you in the most effective way that I can, that I'm not interested.

Therefore this is my notice. I will not read or respond to any more of your posts to me.
(1)If you could provide any serious exegetical support for the notion of immaterial substance, you'd do it. You have zero evidence, other than to presume that modern Bible translations are correct.
(2) If you had any serious rebuttals to my exegetical arguments in support of materialism, you would have posted them by now.

You're absolutely correct that you and I are following different gospels. Mine derives from exegesis. Yours is a blind faith in traditional and modern scholarship. How unfortunate.

Immaterialistic Spirit means that God has no size and shape.

So if you don't believe me now when I dissent with Spirit, you'll believe me when you stand (on solid material ground) before the (material) throne in heaven where Christ is seated, staring at Him face to face.

No size? No shape? No face? Please.
 
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Der Alte

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Actually what I dislike is any conclusion deemed fully cogent and yet deficient in evidence and/or rationale.
One of the blatant instances of such travesty lies in the evangelical phrase "the sinful nature". No Greek phrase in the NT can be literally rendered "the sinful nature" - that phrase is the direct result of immaterialistic bias. How so? Paul's actual term for "the sinful nature" is the flesh. And by using that designation, Paul has literally - by means of a single word - annihilated any notion of immaterialism off the table.
For starters, if Paul had wanted to convey an immaterial sinful soul, the word "flesh" is the absolute worst possible choice because it literally screams matter. And the more we delve into Romans 7 an 8, the more it becomes clear that Paul viewed the human body as the actual sinful nature. Why would Paul do that? Because the material soul, is fused to the material body from head to toe. From that standpoint, any part of your body is capable of sinning - maybe later I'll comment briefly on James' discussion of the untameable tongue.
Understandably, then, Paul cries out in Romans 7, "Who will rescue me from this body of death?" Notice Paul doesn't say, "Who will rescue me from this sinful immaterial mind?"
As for regeneration, does it take place in an immaterial mind? Is that what the Holy Breath targets with regenerating Life? Or does He target the physical human body? According to Rom 8:11:
"And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you."
Now, if this be true, your "sinful nature" actually has a physical shape. It is the shape of your body. That's what Paul confirmed at verse 3:
"God [sent] his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh".
You gotta love Paul, right? He certainly has a way with words. Two obvious things to note here:
(1) As everywhere else, the Greek word for "flesh" here is sarx. It occurs about 150 times in the NT, consistently in reference to animal or human bodies. In fact if you were to study all known languages, I think you'd find their term for "flesh", when used as a literal statement to designate existing substance, is never used for immaterial substance. No Platonist, for example, would ever refer to the immaterial realm as flesh. What is of import here, then, is that Paul accuses the flesh of being a sinner, because he calls it "sinful flesh".
(2) In what sense did Christ come in the likeness of sinful flesh? Did Christ arrive tainted with sin? Obviously what Paul is saying is that Christ came in a distinctive physical shape - the same physical shape as the sinful nature.
Verse 10:
"Your body is dead because of sin."
Physically dead? Did your heart stop? No. He means spiritually dead, that is, unregenerate. This proves that God regenerates the body, not some immaterial soul. This is clear from the very next verse, already cited above:
[He] will also give life to your mortal bodies (verse 11).
Verse 13 confirms the entire schema:
"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
Misdeeds of - the body? My body is what actually sins? But didn't the theologians teach us that it is our immaterial mind that sins? Those theologians haven't been listening to Paul. They've been listening to you-know-who.
Let's roll back to chapter 7:
"For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death" (7:5).
Why didn't he say, "the sinful passions at work in our immaterial minds?" Is he really saying that my actual members are alive? That they consciously indulge in sinful passions? Take a look at Col 3:5:
"Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry."
Put them to death physically? No. Spiritually. Foster in them the regenerating/sanctifying Life of Christ in order to quicken them. This means your body is not a mere machine. It is a moral agent in need of sanctification.
A lot of wasted time and band width in this post. I don't know who you are arguing with but it certainly isn't me. Please show me where I have ever used the word "immaterial?"
 
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