ETERNAL SECURITY/ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED

Skidder said:

When you prove to me the definition of eternal doesn't mean eternal. You are the one who denies the finished work of Christ, by claiming His blood isn't good enough, it needs help from your flesh.

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I’m not a universalist so I do understand that the word aiṓnios does actually mean eternal and I can prove it.

Eternal

G166

aiṓnios

Description:

1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

2) without beginning

3) without end, never to cease, everlasting


Grammar:

from αἰών; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

There now I proved that eternal means eternal. Are ya happy now? Are you ready to start discussing the scriptures?

Skidder said:

What about all the verses that you are denying? All four Gospels, all the verses that talk about Christ dying for your sins, all the verses that talk about Justification, redemption, sanctification, reconciliation, the blood, the cross, the resurrection and the life, not by works by by His grace, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, all the books of the New Testament that speak of the Gospel of GRACE. Your works salvation contradicts them all. So where do you want to start? You are the one who is trying to cherry pick just few verses to accommodate your works salvation. The whole New Testament is about the Christ being manifested to take away our sins, I can't find one verse that says Christ Crucified + you = Salvation.

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Pick 3 of your favorite scriptures that you think supports eternal security and I will explain to you how they don’t. Even tho you refuse to explain to me how the three I provided don’t prove conditional security.

Emsmom1 said:

As a new Christian this concerns me-it seems like these two verses are contradictory. What am I missing?

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In Romans 7:14-24: Paul is recounting his past experience as a Pharisee when he followed the Law of Moses (the 613 laws of Moses) as the sole source of his salvation. He struggled to keep the Law but he could not do so because he did not have Jesus Christ in His life to overcome sin. For Paul later says in Romans 13:14, "Put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not make any provision for the flesh, so as to fulfil the lusts thereof."

Paul also later says in Romans 8:13, "For if you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live."

Skidder said:

If you believe you can lose your salvation you are in bondage to a works salvation. A little yeast works through the whole batch. It is either by His grace, or the self righteous stench of human effort.

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I believe God does the good work through the believer after they are saved by God's grace. This is called Sanctification and it is not human effort alone but it is God working in a person to do good works and to live holy. While God's grace is how we are initially, and ultimately saved, if we do not enter into the second step of the salvation process and live holy, we are not going to make it. The Bible says, without holiness no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

For what is the alternative to living holy and or doing good works after we are saved by God's grace? What is the opposite of living holy? Living in sin or like the devil. What is the opposite of good works? It is being unfruitful or unprofitable and lazy. Do you know that the Bible talks about how the unprofitable servant was cast into outer darkness?

Emsmom1 said:

Okay, but what about 1 John 1:8? "8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us." Or is this talking about before someone becomes a Christian?

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What is helpful in understanding 1 John 1:8 is looking at its immediate context. 1 John 1:10 says if we say we have not sinned. 1 John 1:10 switches gears from 1 John 1:8 in regards to time; John talks about the declaration on committing sin in verse 8 (which is present tense) to a declaration on committing sin being a past declaration (with verse 10). Verse 10 is saying there are people who said they have not sinned (past tense). This is clearly a gnostic belief. Why? Well, most believers today hold to the idea that they have sinned as a part of their old life before coming to Christ (Regardless of whether they are “OSAS,” a “Sin and still be saved” type believer, or a “Conditional Salvationist”). So this clearly is a “gnostic belief” that John was warning the brethren about (See 1 John 2:26). 1 John 1:8 is a present declaration of sin. It is saying if we say we have no sin when we do sin (present tense). This has to be the interpretative understanding of this verse because 1 John 2:4 says if we say we know Him and do not keep His commandments we are a liar and the truth is not in us. The OSAS's interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not work because it conflicts with a normal reading on 1 John 2:3-4. You cannot always be in sin (breaking God's commands) as a part of 1 John 1:8 and yet also fulfill 1 John 2:3 that says we can have an assurance of knowing Him if we keep His commandments. Especially when 1 John 2:4 says we are a liar and the truth is not in us if we break his commandments. In other words, if the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 was true, then I would be damned if I do by obeying God's commands (1 John 1:8) and yet I would be damned if I don't by not obeying God's commands (1 John 2:4).

In fact, the New English Translation says this for 1 John 1:8,


In other words, this verse is saying that if a person sins and says they do not bear the guilt of sin (in the sense that they will not have to face any wrath or Judgment from God over their sin) then they would be deceiving themselves and the truth would not be in them. This is exactly what the Eternal Security proposes. They are saying that they do not bear the guilt of any sin (destruction of their soul and body in hell fire) if they do sin because they believe their future sins are paid for by Jesus. They are saying, they do not bear the guilt or the punishment of sin at the final Judgment because of their belief on Jesus. In short, 1 John 1:8 is a denial of the existence of sin on some level. “If we say we have no sin (in the sense that it does not exist) we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8). Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and does not exist at all. So this verse would apply to them. Eternal Security Proponents and those who deny that “Sin Can Separate a Believer from God” deny the existence of sin partially. They believe sin exists physically but they do not believe sin exists for them on a spiritual level because Jesus has forgiven them of all their sin by their belief on Jesus. In fact, to see just how silly your argument actually is for 1 John 1:8, you would have to believe that you are sinning right now at this very moment in order for such a verse to be true because 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present tense.

John prescribes that we do not think that sin is an illusion, and we are automatically saved, but John is telling us to "sin not" and go to our advocate Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1), and confess our sins so as to be forgiven of sin and to be cleansed of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). How can you confess and be forgiven of sin if all your future sin is paid for? It makes no sense.

You can say that John is talking about a break of fellowship by one's sins and not a loss of salvation, but that would not be consistent with Scripture. 1 John 5:12 says he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son does not have life.

Skidder said:

I cannot make you believe His blood is sufficient , only God can show you that. A salvation that is not ETERNAL is nothing but a works salvation no matter how much frosting you put on it. No matter how much you rationalize why it needs to be "kept" apart from His grace.

And as far as "license to sin", you don't know how many times I have been accused of that. Just because I refuse to mix The blood of forgiveness with the self righteous stench of human effort.

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1 John 1:7.

1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

Walking in the light is loving your brother according to 1 John 2:9-11. So we have to love our brother to have the blood of Jesus cleanse us from all sin. That is how the blood is continually applied to our lives (after we are saved by God's grace by believing in Jesus's death, burial, and resurrection on our behalf).

Not enough?

Also, see 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15.

Skidder said:

What about all the verses that you are denying? All four Gospels, all the verses that talk about Christ dying for your sins, all the verses that talk about Justification, redemption, sanctification, reconciliation, the blood, the cross, the resurrection and the life, not by works by by His grace, Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, all the books of the New Testament that speak of the Gospel of GRACE. Your works salvation contradicts them all. So where do you want to start? You are the one who is trying to cherry pick just few verses to accommodate your works salvation. The whole New Testament is about the Christ being manifested to take away our sins, I can't find one verse that says Christ Crucified + you = Salvation.

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What is the opposite of good works?

Evil works or sin.

Unless one is sleeping or unconscious, one is either doing righteousness or they are sinning.

I would think God would want us to do what is good and righteous, and I do not think God would want us to sin and or do evil. That is kind of like Morality 101.

Skidder said:

Eternal security is your slander of what the bible calls eternal life. You use that term as a diversion because eternal life gives no glory to your flesh, because the blood of Christ gives no glory to your flesh. You think Christ Crucified wasn't good enough, and that is why you mix the blood with the stench of human effort.

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Awesome now we can get somewhere. Everyone who believes has eternal life. First let’s examine the actual definition of the Greek words pisteuo (believe), pistis (faith), and pistos (believer).

Faith, believe, and believer are all actually 3 different forms of the same Greek word pistis. Faith or pistis being the noun, believe or pisteuo being the verb, and believer or pistos being the adjective. The Greek words pisteuo (believe) pistos (believer) pistis (faith) all imply a certain level of faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty in their definition.

believe

G4100

Lemma:

πιστεύω

Transliteration:

pisteúō

Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers

G4103

Lemma:

πιστός

Transliteration:

pistós

Description:

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

faith

G4102

Lemma:

πίστις

Transliteration:

pístis

Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on

Now I’m confident that you will reject the idea that we must remain faithful, trustworthy, and loyal to Christ and that all we must do is simply acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God and we can rely on Him to forgive all our sins and it will be so. That kind of believing is refuted in the Bible several times and I will prove it.

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now what reason did Jesus give for condemning these people who said to Him Lord Lord? Obviously they believed in Jesus Christ because they performed many miracles in His name. Jesus condemned them because of their lust for sin. This is undeniable because He specifically stated why they were condemned and even explained that simply hearing His words and not acting on them will not grant anyone access to eternal life. These people lacked the qualities that I highlighted in the definition I provided above. They were not faithful, trustworthy, loyal, and had no fidelity. So when you look at the definitions of the words faith, believe, and believer you must take into account that Jesus has said many times that simply acknowledging His existence and ignoring His teachings will not result in salvation. Let’s examine some more examples.

“"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-46 NASB

Again what reason did Jesus give for condemning the goats? They did not act on His words. Jesus didn’t say they didn’t believe, they even addressed Him as Lord but it was because of their lack of love for others that they were condemned. They did not abide in Christ.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away (to cut off or remove something that is attached to anything; to remove) and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that doesn’t bear fruit. Anyone who does not abide (stay, remain, continue) is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. IF you keep Jesus’ commandments you will abide in His love. These are all CONDITIONAL verses to that are mandatory to receiving salvation, they are not optional.

“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-28‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-20‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now what you have to realize is that our efforts are NOT TO EARN SALVATION but the result of a devoted heart to Christ. Those who hear His words and do not follow and do not act on them are NOT true disciples of Christ and will NOT receive eternal life simply by acknowledging His existence. So do you see here how much scripture reformed theology ignores? Jesus has the authority to choose who will receive eternal life and who will not and He will judge everyone ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS.

Skidder said:

So basically hell is not eternal? Is that what you are saying?

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I’m really struggling here trying to understand how you could possibly come to that conclusion based on anything I wrote in that post. Can you please quote which part of my post you think supports the idea that hell is not eternal?

Skidder said:

You have to read what I wrote. The same Greek word for "eternal" hell is the same Greek word for "eternal" life . If you change the definition of one you are now preaching a false hell to go with your works salvation.

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I did read it, did you read what I wrote?

BNR32FAN said:

Now what you have to realize is that our efforts are NOT TO EARN SALVATION but the result of a devoted heart to Christ. Those who hear His words and do not follow and do not act on them are NOT true disciples of Christ and will NOT receive eternal life simply by acknowledging His existence. So do you see here how much scripture reformed theology ignores? Jesus has the authority to choose who will receive eternal life and who will not and He will judge everyone ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS.

Click to expand...

Skidder said:

You have to read what I wrote. The same Greek word for "eternal" hell is the same Greek word for "eternal" life . If you change the definition of one you are now preaching a false hell to go with your works salvation.

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So what about the person who believes but later turns away from belief to unbelief as Paul mentioned in Romans 11?

“But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭11:17-23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Skidder said:

I believe the Jewish nation will be saved when they look upon the one they pierced. Even those in the old Testament had to wait for the blood of His cross. The blood of Christ is the only remedy for sin in any dispensation.

And when the Jews rejected Jesus Christ; this Salvation was given to the gentiles to kindle a jealousy in His people (Romans 11:11). His plan to bring them to salvation through the blood of His dear Son will not be complete until they say, “Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord”.

Romans 11:11
I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Matthew 23:39.
"For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

This statement was a prophecy made by Christ after he had already entered Jerusalem before His death. And if they are making this statement, than they must believe He is the Christ.

So my conclusion to this verse in Romans is that they will continue in unbelief until He pours out His Spirit and they look upon the one they pierced. And that is how they are grafted back in.

"And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.”

Zechariah 12:10
“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

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But their salvation is still contingent on them believing. Notice Paul said if they turn from their unbelief, he didn’t say when they turn from their unbelief. This indicates that not all Jews will turn from unbelief.

BNR32FAN said:

Awesome now we can get somewhere. Everyone who believes has eternal life. First let’s examine the actual definition of the Greek words pisteuo (believe), pistis (faith), and pistos (believer).

Faith, believe, and believer are all actually 3 different forms of the same Greek word pistis. Faith or pistis being the noun, believe or pisteuo being the verb, and believer or pistos being the adjective. The Greek words pisteuo (believe) pistos (believer) pistis (faith) all imply a certain level of faithfulness, trustworthiness, fidelity, and loyalty in their definition.

believe

G4100

Lemma:

πιστεύω

Transliteration:

pisteúō

Description:

1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in a) of the thing believed

1) to credit, have confidence b) in a moral or religious reference

1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul

2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith

3) mere acknowledgment of some fact or event: intellectual faith

2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity a) to be intrusted with a thing


believers

G4103

Lemma:

πιστός

Transliteration:

pistós

Description:

1) trusty, faithful a) of persons who show themselves faithful in the transaction of business, the execution of commands, or the discharge of official duties b) one who kept his plighted faith, worthy of trust c) that can be relied on

2) easily persuaded a) believing, confiding, trusting b) in the NT one who trusts in God's promises

1) one who is convinced that Jesus has been raised from the dead

2) one who has become convinced that Jesus is the Messiah and author of salvation

faith

G4102

Lemma:

πίστις

Transliteration:

pístis

Description:

1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it a) relating to God

1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ b) relating to Christ

1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God c) the religious beliefs of Christians d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same

2) fidelity, faithfulness a) the character of one who can be relied on

Now I’m confident that you will reject the idea that we must remain faithful, trustworthy, and loyal to Christ and that all we must do is simply acknowledge that Jesus is the Son of God and we can rely on Him to forgive all our sins and it will be so. That kind of believing is refuted in the Bible several times and I will prove it.

“"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell-and great was its fall."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21-27‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now what reason did Jesus give for condemning these people who said to Him Lord Lord? Obviously they believed in Jesus Christ because they performed many miracles in His name. Jesus condemned them because of their lust for sin. This is undeniable because He specifically stated why they were condemned and even explained that simply hearing His words and not acting on them will not grant anyone access to eternal life. These people lacked the qualities that I highlighted in the definition I provided above. They were not faithful, trustworthy, loyal, and had no fidelity. So when you look at the definitions of the words faith, believe, and believer you must take into account that Jesus has said many times that simply acknowledging His existence and ignoring His teachings will not result in salvation. Let’s examine some more examples.

“"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25:31-46 NASB

Again what reason did Jesus give for condemning the goats? They did not act on His words. Jesus didn’t say they didn’t believe, they even addressed Him as Lord but it was because of their lack of love for others that they were condemned. They did not abide in Christ.

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away (to cut off or remove something that is attached to anything; to remove) and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

The Father cuts off every branch IN CHRIST that doesn’t bear fruit. Anyone who does not abide (stay, remain, continue) is cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned. IF you keep Jesus’ commandments you will abide in His love. These are all CONDITIONAL verses to that are mandatory to receiving salvation, they are not optional.

“And He began telling this parable: "A man had a fig tree which had been planted in his vineyard; and he came looking for fruit on it and did not find any. And he said to the vineyard-keeper, 'Behold, for three years I have come looking for fruit on this fig tree without finding any. Cut it down! Why does it even use up the ground?' And he answered and said to him, 'Let it alone, sir, for this year too, until I dig around it and put in fertilizer; and if it bears fruit next year, fine; but if not, cut it down.'"”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:6-9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:19‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Indeed the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; so every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-28‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself. But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-20‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Now what you have to realize is that our efforts are NOT TO EARN SALVATION but the result of a devoted heart to Christ. Those who hear His words and do not follow and do not act on them are NOT true disciples of Christ and will NOT receive eternal life simply by acknowledging His existence. So do you see here how much scripture reformed theology ignores? Jesus has the authority to choose who will receive eternal life and who will not and He will judge everyone ACCORDING TO THEIR DEEDS.

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I believe the word "faith" does mean "believe" according to the context in many cases within the Bible, brother. For example: James 2:24 says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone. If faith means "faithfulness" (Which is implied by works), then James 2:24 becomes problematic to understand.

But not to worry, my friend. There is plenty of ammunition in the Scriptures to destroy Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved gospel.

John 5:24 says that we are to hear (obey) and believe as a part of having eternal life.


Granted, a belief in Jesus would also include believing not only in the person of Jesus Christ as their Savior, and the gospel (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), but in believing in everything that He taught, too (Which would include Christ's teaching on holiness, and in warning against sin). Trust in what Jesus says leads to right actions. Hence, James 2:24, James 2:17, etc.

Skidder said:

So basically hell is not eternal? Is that what you are saying?

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Yes. While Hell is a real and literal place of torment, hell is not eternal.

The "everlasting punishment" mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is in reference to "everlasting destruction."

2 Thessalonians 1:9 says,
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

Something that is destroyed is no longer in the form that it used to be.
God is good.
He is not going to punish somebody beyond what the crime calls for (See: John 12:47-48).

Salvation is in three tenses: past, present, and future.

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Yes. Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification.

Sanctification is God working in a believer to put away sin, and to live holy, and be fruitful for the Lord (obeying His commands). Scripture says that every believer should know how to possess their vessel in Sanctification and honor (1 Thessalonians 4:4). 1 Thessalonians 4:3 talks about abstaining from fornication as a part of Sanctification. 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says that God has chosen us to salvation by a belief in the Truth AND by the Sanctification of the Spirit.