Millennials are leaving religion and not coming back

Occams Barber · Dec 12, 2019

essentialsaltes said:
My own upbringing was religious, but I’ve come to believe you can get important moral teachings outside religion,” she said. “And in some ways I think many religious organizations are not good models for those teachings.”

By secular standards Christianity is collectively one of the worst behaved institutions in society.

Its moral failings include deliberately maintaining a patriarchy, open misogyny, and discrimination based on gender, sexual preference or religion. Christianity also expects to be awarded special privileges like taxation exemption, exclusion from reporting crime (specifically child sexual abuse) and the right to teach mythology as if it were scientific fact. Add on its habit of vilifying minorities (like homosexuals) and insulting other religions along with an incomprehensible fear of human sexuality and you have an institution which, by secular standards, is severely messed up. To cap it all Christianity provides no justification for this behaviour apart from the claimed inerrancy of a 2000 year old book or a vague reference to Christian tradition.

Not all churches are totally complicit in the litany of anti-social behaviour; all commit at least one of these moral crimes, and most are guilty of many.

Is it surprising that people are walking away in droves?
OB

Occams Barber · Dec 12, 2019

straykat said:
By "impressed", do you mean reading my mind and motivations from a small post and unloading verbal diarrhea? Cool story, bro.

After @essentialsaltes posted his OP I was waiting eagerly for the standard wheat/tares/goat/sheep/Scotsman excuse to crop up. It took only 24 minutes before you obliged and provided the ideal opportunity to make a general point about Christianity.

Thank you.

OB

FireDragon76 · Dec 12, 2019

I can sympathize with alot of millenials, even though I'm a Gen X'er. I spent my 30's as a Christian seeker, only to gradually realize in my early 40's that the Church is not necessarily a force for good in American society, and backs some conservative attitudes, even in relatively liberal denominations.

I mean, I really had to check myself when my church congregation started implementing a policy of having armed guards in our church and drills for escape plans. When the guards started harassing homeless people, that was too much for me to deal with. I am not OK with guns being in church, or homeless people being treated in such a wary manner. It's hypocritical and un-Christ-like.

straykat · Dec 12, 2019

Occams Barber said:
After @essentialsaltes posted his OP I was waiting eagerly for the standard wheat/tares/goat/sheep/Scotsman excuse to crop up. It took only 24 minutes before you obliged and provided the ideal opportunity to make a general point about Christianity.

Thank you.
OB

What are you talking about? Look at my avatar. It's a catacomb cross. Does it look like I take pride in numbers? And when did Christ ever talk about this?

"There are many called, but few are chosen."

"Enter the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

If you're going to come to this site and engage Christians, learn their actual history. And don't just jump on a random poster and assume you know their life story and everything they stand for. At the very least, ask them an actual question first.

Aryeh Jay · Dec 12, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I can sympathize with alot of millenials, even though I'm a Gen X'er. I spent my 30's as a Christian seeker, only to gradually realize in my early 40's that the Church is not necessarily a force for good in American society, and backs some conservative attitudes, even in relatively liberal denominations.

I mean, I really had to check myself when my church congregation started implementing a policy of having armed guards in our church and drills for escape plans. When the guards started harassing homeless people, that was too much for me to deal with. I am not OK with guns being in church, or homeless people being treated in such a wary manner. It's hypocritical and un-Christ-like.

Heck, every synagogue I have ever attended has had to have armed guards, since the 1980s, but ours don’t harass the homeless or other guests.

CRAZY_CAT_WOMAN · Dec 12, 2019

ReesePiece23 said:
Yep, our previous generation failed us by using guilt as a motivator.

Yes, The ones that preach the loudest tend to have more secrets. Children out of wedlock, abortions, child abuse , affairs and divorces.

MehGuy · Dec 12, 2019

Yeah, I think many of us millennials were simply exposed to more information thanks to the internet.

FireDragon76 · Dec 12, 2019

Aryeh Jay said:
Heck, every synagogue I have ever attended has had to have armed guards, since the 1980s, but ours don’t harass the homeless or other guests.

That's understandable given the sad history of synagogues being targeted.

Our denomination has only had one incident even remotely like that in the past decade. A doctor was assassinated at one of our churches in 2009 in Wichita, Kansas.

Mostly the guards would approach homeless people and ask them a bunch of questions about why they are there. I can only imagine that could be intimidating. Christian churches are supposed to be more open and welcoming than that, at least that was my understanding based on the theology I had studied. It's not "our" church, it's Jesus' church, after all.

Occams Barber · Dec 12, 2019

straykat said:
What are you talking about? Look at my avatar. It's a catacomb cross. Does it look like I take pride in numbers? And when did Christ ever talk about this?

"There are many called, but few are chosen."

"Enter the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."

If you're going to come to this site and engage Christians, learn their actual history. And don't just jump on a random poster and assume you know their life story and everything they stand for. At the very least, ask them an actual question first.

You were simply a source for the standard Christian excuse:

straykat said:
Better to have them entirely gone than weakening the Church from within.

It comes up with monotonous regularity on this forum; usually based on the wheat/sheep trope. I didn't need to know your history to read your actual words.

Christians will claim that growth on the other hand is unwaveringly a good thing.

This is what I mean by Christianity, as an institution, claiming success both ways.

OB

straykat · Dec 12, 2019

Occams Barber said:
You were simply a source for the standard Christian excuse:

It comes up with monotonous regularity on this forum; usually based on the wheat/sheep trope. I didn't need to know your history to read your actual words.

Christians will claim that growth on the other hand is unwaveringly a good thing.

This is what I mean by Christianity, as an institution, claiming success both ways.

OB

OK then. Well, Christianity has lately been conflicted by these two driving forces, of purity vs growth (if you will). But I wouldn't say it's been happening since the beginning. In the earliest centuries of the Church (and still to this day in some circles), even if there were a large number of attendees/converts, they went through a long catechesis before they were even baptized. No one added on numbers or took pride in that just for the sake of it. I'm not sure when that changed.

FireDragon76 · Dec 12, 2019

MehGuy said:
Yeah, I think many of us millennials were simply exposed to more information thanks to the internet.

That reminds me of one frustrating conversation I had with my pastor. He had no good responses to the challenges of religious pluralism. Until churches start dealing with the fact that Christianity is not a default anymore, they will continue to decline.

FireDragon76 · Dec 12, 2019

straykat said:
OK then. Well, Christianity has lately been conflicted by these two driving forces, of purity vs growth (if you will). But I wouldn't say it's been happening since the beginning. In the earliest centuries of the Church (and still to this day in some circles), even if there were a large number of attendees/converts, they went through a long catechesis before they were even baptized. No one added on numbers or took pride in that just for the sake of it. I'm not sure when that changed.

During Constantine and Theodosius' reigns when people had to become Christian or die. That was the birth of the idea of "Christendom". And churches have been operating within that mode ever since. Before then, churches had to offer some tangible benefit to people, or people simply wouldn't join.

Christendom is now dead, and has been dead for some time, however. With the end of the Cold War, you can no longer scare people into churches as you once could have.

Occams Barber · Dec 12, 2019

straykat said:
OK then. Well, Christianity has lately been conflicted by these two driving forces, of purity vs growth (if you will). But I wouldn't say it's been happening since the beginning. In the earliest centuries of the Church (and still to this day in some circles), even if there were a large number of attendees/converts, they went through a long catechesis before they were even baptized. No one added on numbers or took pride in that just for the sake of it. I'm not sure when that changed.

There are certain realities here that Christians need to face openly. Western Christianity is shrinking. The idea that those it's lost are not true Christians and, by implication, those that remain are the real Christians, sounds a lot like a protective excuse to avoid facing reality.

If Christianity is to survive as anything more than an eccentric minority it needs to do a lot more than soul searching. It needs to fully understand why people are leaving and what action (if any) it's prepared to take to stem the flood. Personally, I suspect that the horse has already bolted.
OB

straykat · Dec 12, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
During Constantine and Theodosius' reigns when people had to become Christian or die. That was the birth of the idea of "Christendom". And churches have been operating within that mode ever since. Before then, churches had to offer some tangible benefit to people, or people simply wouldn't join.

Christendom is now dead, and has been dead for some time, however. With the end of the Cold War, you can no longer scare people into churches as you once could have.

Constantine didn't scare anyone into it. If anything, Constantine made the religious atmosphere more relaxed than some would have liked. Some people in the Roman empire simply joined for petty reasons, because it was the "in thing" to do. It wasn't long after him that some Christians went into the desert, because they didn't feel right having to mingle with the same Roman bureaucrats who once persecuted them and killed their predecessors. These wanderers in the desert are now known as the Desert Fathers and Mothers.. which eventually morphed into monasticism. It's a good example of the very "purity vs numbers" problem I'm talking about.

Just saying that makes you sound like an ex-evangelical or something, repeating their talking about points about the evil Catholics and Orthodox who supposedly corrupted the church. Then patting yourself on the back as if it's something new and rebellious. When, in fact, it's just the same nonsense that all fundies already believe. This is why I always say that the Reformation and Enlightenment are two peas in a pod. Both hold up individualism and are conspiratorial about church history. It's just that the non-religious wing go a step further.

FireDragon76 · Dec 12, 2019

straykat said:
Constantine didn't scare anyone into it. If anything, Constantine made the religious atmosphere more relaxed than some would have liked. Some people in the Roman empire simply joined for petty reasons, because it was the "in thing" to do. It wasn't long after him that some Christians went into the desert, because they didn't feel right having to mingle with the same Roman bureaucrats who once persecuted them and killed their predecessors. These wanderers in the desert are now known as the Desert Fathers and Mothers.. which eventually morphed into monasticism. It's a good example of the very "purity vs numbers" problem I'm talking about.

Just saying that makes you sound like an ex-evangelical or something, repeating their talking about points about the evil Catholics and Orthodox who supposedly corrupted the church. Then patting yourself on the back as if it's something new and rebellious. When, in fact, it's just the same nonsense that all fundies already believe. This is why I always say that the Reformation and Enlightenment are two peas in a pod. Both hold up individualism and are conspiratorial about church history. It's just that the non-religious wing go a step further.

I am an ex-Evangelical, but one from a more mainline Protestant orientation.

I don't accept Catholic tradition as the arbiter of truth. They've burned too many heretics and pagans for me to consider that an ethical worldview.

straykat · Dec 12, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
I am an ex-Evangelical, but one from a more mainline Protestant orientation.

I don't accept Catholic tradition as the arbiter of truth. They've burned too many heretics and pagans for me to consider that an ethical worldview.

I know you are. It's obvious. I just wish more ex/disgruntled types came up with a better "origin story" for themselves. It's just Evangelical 2.0.

Cimorene · Dec 12, 2019

essentialsaltes said:
Millennials Are Leaving Religion And Not Coming Back

Social science research has long suggested that Americans’ relationship with religion has a tidal quality — people who were raised religious find themselves drifting away as young adults, only to be drawn back in when they find spouses and begin to raise their own families. Some argued that young adults just hadn’t yet been pulled back into the fold of organized religion, especially since they were hitting major milestones like marriage and parenthood later on.

But now many millennials have spouses, children and mortgages — and there’s little evidence of a corresponding surge in religious interest. A new national survey from the American Enterprise Institute of more than 2,500 Americans found a few reasons why millennials may not return to the religious fold. (One of the authors of this article helped conduct the survey.)

For one thing, many millennials never had strong ties to religion to begin with, which means they were less likely to develop habits or associations that make it easier to return to a religious community.

Young adults are also increasingly likely to have a spouse who is nonreligious, which may help reinforce their secular worldview.

Changing views about the relationship between morality and religion also appear to have convinced many young parents that religious institutions are simply irrelevant or unnecessary for their children.

So are Gen Z's. Me, @Stanfordella @Zoii we're in Gen Z, which comes after Millennials. It's the least religious generation in history.

Tbh I think Christians do more to repel ppl from faith than any other influence. I know that's why a lot of the young ppl on here have left or taken long breaks. I get worn out big time. It hurts. There's so much toxicity & in-fighting amongst ourselves, why would somebody looking on want to be a part of it, ya know? Plus it is massively confusing seeing the political views.

FireDragon76 · Dec 12, 2019

straykat said:
I know you are. It's obvious. I just wish more ex/disgruntled types came up with a better "origin story" for themselves. It's just Evangelical 2.0.

I don't see how you can take Catholicism all that seriously. It's a highly authoritarian and totalizing worldview where you are expected to follow one man and his opinions. Can you say "The Emperor's New Clothes"?

Zoii · Dec 12, 2019

I had to come to CF to realise just how vitriolic Christianity could be. It was at that point I changed my status away from Christian.

The show-stoppers for me were:

The vehement disapproval of science particularly as it relates to the climate science, and our geological/biological history.
The belief set that women are inferior, that leads to disapproval of women in leadership, and outright misogyny
Behaviours in religious institutions that culminated in child sexual abuse, that remains ongoing
The vitriol thrown at those who have same sex attractions or gender identity issues
The intolerance and disrespect towards others of different religious beliefs - whether they be between different Christian cohorts, or towards other religions.
The insistence to translate every discussion into a Left versus Right political discussion.

In my mind the only saving grace of this site is the teens that come here. @Stanfordella @Cimorene @Go Braves ; these are examples of teens that put a shining light on Christianity and this site should count their blessings they've chosen to remain here - Though many of you don't make that an easy decision.

FireDragon76 · Dec 12, 2019

Zoii said:
I had to come to CF to realise just how vitriolic Christianity could be. It was at that point I changed my status away from Christian.

The show-stoppers for me were:

The vehement disapproval of science particularly as it relates to the climate science, and our geological/biological history.

The belief set that women are inferior, that leads to disapproval of women in leadership, and outright misogyny

Behaviours in religious institutions that culminated in child sexual abuse, that remains ongoing

The vitriol thrown at those who have same sex attractions or gender identity issues

The intolerance and disrespect towards others of different religious beliefs - whether they be between different Christian cohorts, or towards other religions.

The insistence to translate every discussion into a Left versus Right political discussion.

In my mind the only saving grace of this site is the teens that come here. @Stanfordella @Cimorene @Go Braves ; these are examples of teens that put a shining light on Christianity and this site should count their blessings they've chosen to remain here - Though many of you don't make that an easy decision.

I'm a Gen X'er and slowly getting on in years but I am hopeful and optimistic about Millenials and Gen Z because they generally seem to be thoughtful and concerned people and aren't as self-absorbed as previous generations seemed to be.

I really think the problem is that religious institutions tend to be tradition heavy and often dominated by old people who are out of touch with a quickly changing world. I know interacting with my own pastor, that is the case.

Millennials are leaving religion and not coming back

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