Should churches be taxed?

RDKirk

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Okay, apparently we have to go there.

In part, the First Amendment says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof".

In those words lay tax exemption for religious groups. Because it's paradoxical for the government to claim that Congress can't create law prohibiting the free exercise of religion while subjecting religious groups to the burden of taxation. If one is being taxed for exercising of religion, the exercising of religion cannot logically be called a free exercise. Because such wouldn't be free.

As has already been noted: "The power to tax is the power to destroy" This quotation comes from the words of DANIEL WEBSTER and those of JOHN MARSHALL in the Supreme Court case, McCulloch v. Maryland. Webster, in arguing the case, said: “An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy,” 17 U.S. 327 (1819).

That is the real reason atheists bring the issue up.
 
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thecolorsblend

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It means that government can't keep believers from attending...free does not always refer to money.
Ah yes, "free exercise" doesn't mean "free" and it doesn't mean "exercise", got it, thx for clearing that up.
 
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zephcom

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Ah yes, "free exercise" doesn't mean "free" and it doesn't mean "exercise", got it, thx for clearing that up.
Do keep in mind that taxing churches does not prohibit anyone from freely accessing the church any more than taxing corporations prohibits anyone from buying from a corporation.

The free exercise applies to people's ability to go to church and has nothing to do with taxing the church itself.
 
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RDKirk

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Do keep in mind that taxing churches does not prohibit anyone from freely accessing the church any more than taxing corporations prohibits anyone from buying from a corporation.

The free exercise applies to people's ability to go to church and has nothing to do with taxing the church itself.

And yet, corporations claim that being taxed hampers their operation and threatens their existence.

I'd point out that the real state of church taxation is no different from any other non-profit organization.
 
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zephcom

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And yet, corporations claim that being taxed hampers their operation and threatens their existence.

I'd point out that the real state of church taxation is no different from any other non-profit organization.
And despite all the whining from corporations about being taxed they are wildly successful. Paying taxes are built into their business model just as paying for their raw materials is built into their business model.

People whine about taxes all the time but the country still goes on and on.

And I will point out that I've already said that, at least for me, taxing churches has nothing at all to do with them being churches. I don't think we should have ANY non-profit organizations. I don't think anyone should get a free ride from paying for the government which creates the environment we all use to hold us together as a nation.
 
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thecolorsblend

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Do keep in mind that taxing churches does not prohibit anyone from freely accessing the church any more than taxing corporations prohibits anyone from buying from a corporation.

The free exercise applies to people's ability to go to church and has nothing to do with taxing the church itself.
Almost every word of this is not true. I doubt elaborating upon that will help you much though so I give you the last word.
 
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KeeperOfMemories

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It's not like churches don't give back in the terms of services they use. They provide a place of community for many people. They often organize to do services for the community. It's not like the government has anything to gain from taxing them. It would just make less churches, and less places that contribute to community.
 
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FireDragon76

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It's not like churches don't give back in the terms of services they use. They provide a place of community for many people. They often organize to do services for the community. It's not like the government has anything to gain from taxing them. It would just make less churches, and less places that contribute to community.

I don't buy this argument. For one thing what churches give, they also take. They take away peoples ability to think for themselves and they can foster animus against minority groups in society. So it's not necessarily a positive thing if one values a just society. For every Fred Roger's, there's two or three people that use religion as a way to avoid having to engage in serious ethical deliberation.
 
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KeeperOfMemories

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lol, it sounds like you have quite a bit of animus towards religious people. Newsflash: take away religion and you're not going to have a perfect utopia. There's lots of violence in history caused by secularism: take the French revolution and the Soviet Union.
 
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FireDragon76

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lol, it sounds like you have quite a bit of animus towards religious people. Newsflash: take away religion and you're not going to have a perfect utopia. There's lots of violence in history caused by secularism: take the French revolution and the Soviet Union.

That's a false dichotomy. Just because I criticize some religions, and specifically do not approve of Christian fundamentalism, doesn't mean I criticize all religions. Last time I checked, Unitarians or Wiccans don't go around trying to take away the rights of my gay and trans neighbors to live their lives in peace. Only Christians seem to feel they have the natural right to dominate the lives of other people in that manner. It's the evil legacy of Constantine.
 
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RDKirk

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That's a false dichotomy. Just because I criticize some religions, and specifically do not approve of Christian fundamentalism, doesn't mean I criticize all religions. Last time I checked, Unitarians or Wiccans don't go around trying to take away the rights of my gay and trans neighbors to live their lives in peace. Only Christians seem to feel they have the natural right to dominate the lives of other people in that manner. It's the evil legacy of Constantine.

It's the evil legacy of any religion that gets the use of the king's sword. And Christians have been complaining of that problem since at least Roger Williams in 1644.
 
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blackribbon

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People are free to believe or not believe what they want in the US. Whether or not you believe in what a church teaches isn't a point. Many other organizations, most are not taxed also teach ways to think. I don't agree with many of them but I don't think that we should tax them because I don't agree. Controlling thought is a sign of a non-free state...and only allowing "group thought" is something that is not good. Taxing the organizations that don't agree with the government would be supporting a "nanny state" government. We are now allowed to believe what we want as long as we live within the boundaries of the law. We don't need laws that regulate beliefs or thinking.
 
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FireDragon76

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As long as a church operates as a church and not a political organization that promotes specific candidates or a particular political party, I don't see a basis for taxing them. Once they start politics, they are fair game and should be investigated by the IRS.
 
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straykat

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They should all be taxed and be allowed to say what they want, politically or otherwise. Tax-free status is just a fancy form of making a bribe/hush money payment. Taking 30 pieces of silver to deny the Gospel, in fact.

Christ called us to be the Light of the world. THIS WORLD. Not some metaphysical or irrelevant world. The "Good News" isn't very good news if it bares no relevance to the world. And sometimes, but not always, that's going to require the Church to step on political toes. Especially with war and abortion.
 
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Arcangl86

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They should all be taxed and be allowed to say what they want, politically or otherwise. Tax-free status is just a fancy form of making a bribe/hush money payment. Taking 30 pieces of silver to deny the Gospel, in fact.

Christ called us to be the Light of the world. THIS WORLD. Not some metaphysical or irrelevant world. The "Good News" isn't very good news if it bares no relevance to the world. And sometimes, but not always, that's going to require the Church to step on political toes. Especially with war and abortion.
There is nothing preventing the church from speaking out about those issues. They just can't endorse particular candidates.
 
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straykat

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There is nothing preventing the church from speaking out about those issues. They just can't endorse particular candidates.

You aren't going to win any wars without pointing out your enemies first, and not fighting on the landscape as the rest of the people. Just as the last 50 or so years have proven. There's nothing more pathetic and anemic and lacking in victories than the modern American church.
 
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Arbown

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Well the 501c3s are just a charity org like all the others, so the real question is should charity organizations be taxed. The actual church can't be taxed, as it isn't a form of entity our government recognize. It's also not a 501c3.
 
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RDKirk

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You aren't going to win any wars without pointing out your enemies first, and not fighting on the landscape as the rest of the people. Just as the last 50 or so years have proven. There's nothing more pathetic and anemic and lacking in victories than the modern American church.

The Lord has already pointed out our enemies.

For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. -- Ephesians 6

Who did you think they were?
 
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ruthiesea

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As has already been noted: "The power to tax is the power to destroy" This quotation comes from the words of DANIEL WEBSTER and those of JOHN MARSHALL in the Supreme Court case, McCulloch v. Maryland. Webster, in arguing the case, said: “An unlimited power to tax involves, necessarily, a power to destroy,” 17 U.S. 327 (1819).

That is the real reason atheists bring the issue up.
I’m not an atheist. I spent a lot of time providing police service to houses of worship who got the service for free, while other had to pay for it. The same is true for FD. I think that all of them, including the one in which I am a member, should pay a fair share of taxes.

The IRS guidelines, not rules, permit a lot of leeway as to what constitutes a religion. Even an organization based only on science fiction qualifies as a religion. I won’t mention any names.
 
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SwordmanJr

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First of all, I would say that if one is giving to their church just for taxation benefits, they are doing it for all the wrong reasons.

When individuals set themselves up as the arbiters over economcs and how things should work as opposed to what has worked for more than a century, I'm inclined to see that one or some as ill-qualified as a leader with them being so short-sighted.

But taxes are not based on whether something (be it money or product) has been taxed already or not. Taxes are based on transfers of ownership. For instance, your employer pays taxes on the money he earns by selling product or services. He uses the money -he- paid taxes on to pay you for the work you do for him. And YOU pay taxes on the money you get from him that he paid taxes on.

Never minding, of course, that the money employers pay in salary is tax exempt for the business as an expenditure from its income. Dude, you really have some strange ideas about how things REALLY work.

That is the way taxes work. Government would go broke (broker?) if money and products were only taxed once.

Government only goes broke when it ceases to be accountable to the citizenry, and control its spending. The tax-n-spend philosophy of both the R's and D's is out of control. Politicians have for a long time now been exercising their office as if they are not accountable to the people. Town hall after town hall has shown people asking their representatives to reduce the outrageous spending within government. None of us has any real idea as to how deep the corruption runs within local and federal government, but that too is a HUGE factor in the deficit. We've all heard the old adage about how if any one of us as individfuals conducted our economic responsibilities the way the various levels of government conduct themselves, any of us would have been imprisoned long ago.

So, you're right in some respects in that the laws of economics always win out in the end, mostly with governments going broke because of a lack of self-discipline and self-restraints. They talk like they can't afford to keep the lines painted on the roadways, and yet have all kinds of money to build arenas with no immediate parking for the general populace to attend events in those places. Meanwhile, the kick-backs and other under-the-table payments that go out into Swiss bank accounts of politicians and other officials in government, it all adds up to making the economics of it all to actually balance out. Our recent county sherrif left office because of 96 counts of corruption from contracts he awarded. They traced 96 counts of kick-backs to his myriad of accounts all over the world, and he's just ONE of the many local city officials who was caught simply because he ticked off the wrong person who blew the whistle on him.

So, rather than assume that government is so clean and righteous enough to be taxing church organizations that provide benefit to communities that you fail to recognize, in spite of the bad apples out there, you might stop and think about the meaning of grace. In other words, rather than penalizing ALL on the basis of the bad few or many, consider what value those places can provide communities in hard times as the only places people can go who are suffering and in need of spiritual and emotional comfort and assurance, including sustenance when they're down.

Jr
 
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