Standing for money

AvisG · Dec 12, 2019

RaymondG said:
Are you part of that 98.7% group whose god is Money, or have you put yourself into the 1.3% group of the righteous who are, thereby, able to judge, rightly, the larger group of people...over there?

I've had more than enough money since birth, so money has never been the temptation for me that it might've become if circumstances had been different. That being said, I did make a very conscious decision early in life that money would never be my focus, my God. To the consternation of many, I declined many opportunities for much greater worldly success because I didn't want all the temptations associated with those opportunities. Other people tell me I'm extremely generous with my money, although I know I'm not as generous as I could afford to be. My wife and I do live very, very simply, far more simply than we could. In short: I'm confident I'm not among the 98.7%, but I can't attribute this entirely to my own virtue. If circumstances had been different, Money might well have become my God precisely because it's lure is almost irresistible. I don't say the 1.3% (or whatever it actually is) are necessarily righteous, merely that they haven't succumbed to the most prevalent trap of making Money their God.

SPF · Dec 12, 2019

AvisG said:
I'll repeat what I said on another thread (to deafening silence):

The reality is, Money is God. This is as true within supposed Christianity as in other religions and the secular world. For 98.7% of all people (a guesstimate, but probably quite close), Money is God. Money is what is actually worshipped. You can explain a great deal of what you observe within Christianity and elsewhere if you will simply keep in mind "Money is God." This is true at all levels, from denominations to churches to individuals. It is true of people with vast wealth and little wealth: Money is God.

There is no moral or ethical value that 98.7% of people will not compromise for sufficient money. 98.7% of people do not really, deep down, believe that God is God; hence, they hedge their bets by paying lip service to the God they hope exists while really worshipping Money, the unquestioned God of the world in which they now live.

This being the reality - and it is - 98.7% of people will find some creative way to justify their worship of money, their real God. They will cherry-pick Bible verses, assure you that Jesus was a capitalist, wax poetic about all the wonderful Christ-like things that their God Money can do. They will assure you that money for them is merely a tool that facilitates the worship of God and the doing of countless good deeds. The really devious will try to convince you that the Parable of the Talents is actually about investing money. The loudest squawking that "Money is not my God!" is, of course, by those who for whom there really is no other God except money.

Certainly, money is not inherently evil, any more than sex or rocks or pudding are inherently evil. But greed for money is one of those things, like lust, that inevitably perverts all that it touches. It is essentially impossible to focus on money without succumbing to its lure and eventually worshipping at its altar.

They say 65% of statistics are made up on the spot.

I'll probably pay more in taxes this year than most everyone on this forum is going to make before taxes. And I don't think God has a problem with that. It's all about one's perspective and view of money.

I recognize that everything I own, 100% of it is from God. I actually don't work to make money. I work because work is good and God created me to work. What did God do after creating Adam? He put him to work.

I work to the best of my ability, glorifying God through a good work ethic, not overworking, but working 100% when I'm working, because that's what God has called us all to do, no matter our vocation. The money part is up to and determined by God.

My wife and I strive to use God's money that He puts in our checking account in such a way that brings glory to Him, and extends His kingdom.

There's nothing wrong with being wealthy - so long as one recognizes that their wealth is God's doing and they are called to be a steward of that wealth for God.

RaymondG · Dec 12, 2019

AvisG said:
I've had more than enough money since birth, so money has never been the temptation for me that it might've become if circumstances had been different. That being said, I did make a very conscious decision early in life that money would never be my focus, my God. To the consternation of many, I declined many opportunities for much greater worldly success because I didn't want all the temptations associated with those opportunities. Other people tell me I'm extremely generous with my money, although I know I'm not as generous as I could afford to be. My wife and I do live very, very simply, far more simply than we could. In short: I'm confident I'm not among the 98.7%, but I can't attribute this entirely to my own virtue. If circumstances had been different, Money might well have become my God precisely because it's lure is almost irresistible. I don't say the 1.3% (or whatever it actually is) are necessarily righteous, merely that they haven't succumbed to the most prevalent trap of making Money their God.

Interesting.

What criteria do you use to determine whether or not others are apart of your small group....or apart of the money worshipers. How info would you need to be able to tell if I or the OPer worshiped money?

AvisG · Dec 12, 2019

RaymondG said:
What criteria do you use to determine whether or not others are apart of your small group....or apart of the money worshipers. How info would you need to be able to tell if I or the OPer worshiped money?

I clearly stated that my percentages are guesstimates. They are based on 70 years of pretty extensive experience and observation, particularly of that which calls itself "Christianity." Almost 40 of those years were spent as a practicing lawyer, which gives one rather an accurate and depressing insight into human nature. The guesstimates simply make the point that, in my experience and observation, the VAST MAJORITY of people, ostensible Christians and nonbelievers alike, fall into the Money is God category. Precisely because the VAST MAJORITY of people fall into this category, I would scarcely expect large numbers of people to agree with my observations.

SPF said:
They say 65% of statistics are made up on the spot.

I'll probably pay more in taxes this year than most everyone on this forum is going to make before taxes. And I don't think God has a problem with that. It's all about one's perspective and view of money.

I recognize that everything I own, 100% of it is from God. I actually don't work to make money. I work because work is good and God created me to work. What did God do after creating Adam? He put him to work.

I work to the best of my ability, glorifying God through a good work ethic, not overworking, but working 100% when I'm working, because that's what God has called us all to do, no matter our vocation. The money part is up to and determined by God.

My wife and I strive to use God's money that He puts in our checking account in such a way that brings glory to Him, and extends His kingdom.

There's nothing wrong with being wealthy - so long as one recognizes that their wealth is God's doing and they are called to be a steward of that wealth for God.

And this is, of course, precisely what I would expect someone in my VAST MAJORITY category to say! Your relationship with God is not for me to judge, and I don't. I simply observe. I simply observe that, for 99.99999999% of those who say the sorts of things you have said, their real God is Money. But this too is just a guesstimate, and perhaps you are the exception.

AlexDTX · Dec 12, 2019

AvisG said:
I've had more than enough money since birth, so money has never been the temptation for me that it might've become if circumstances had been different. That being said, I did make a very conscious decision early in life that money would never be my focus, my God. To the consternation of many, I declined many opportunities for much greater worldly success because I didn't want all the temptations associated with those opportunities. Other people tell me I'm extremely generous with my money, although I know I'm not as generous as I could afford to be. My wife and I do live very, very simply, far more simply than we could. In short: I'm confident I'm not among the 98.7%, but I can't attribute this entirely to my own virtue. If circumstances had been different, Money might well have become my God precisely because it's lure is almost irresistible. I don't say the 1.3% (or whatever it actually is) are necessarily righteous, merely that they haven't succumbed to the most prevalent trap of making Money their God.

One never desires what one already has.

AlexDTX · Dec 12, 2019

AvisG said:
The guesstimates simply make the point that, in my experience and observation, the VAST MAJORITY of people, ostensible Christians and nonbelievers alike, fall into the Money is God category.

I think this is a profound statement. Money as an idol, is what you mean. The difficulty of resisting falling into this trap is caused by the material consciousness inundating us by corporations greedily seeking greater profits. Thus it is repeated over and over by advertisements, entertainment, peer pressure and material answers to life by public education.

AlexDTX · Dec 12, 2019

grasping the after wind said:
Money does not store value. It depreciates if you store it.

Most of us do not have any money. We have currency, and there is a difference.

On March 17, 1993 Congressman James Traficant Jr, addressed the House of Representatives on the bankruptcy of the US Federal government. In this speech he explains the difference between money and currency.

Gold and silver were such a powerful money during the founding of the united states of America, that the founding fathers declared that only gold or silver coins can be "money" in America. Since gold and silver coinage were heavy and inconvenient for a lot of transactions, they were stored in banks and a claim check was issued as a money substitute. People traded their coupons as money, or "currency." Currency is not money, but a money substitute. Redeemable currency must promise to pay a dollar equivalent in gold or silver money. Federal Reserve Notes (FRNs) make no such promises, and are not "money." A Federal Reserve Note is a debt obligation of the federal United States government, not "money." The federal United States government and the U.S. Congress were not and have never been authorized by the Constitution for the united states of America to issue currency of any kind, but only lawful money, gold and silver coin. It is essential that we comprehend the distinction between real money and paper money substitute. One cannot get rich by accumulating money substitutes, one can only get deeper into debt. We the People no longer have any "money." Most Americans have not been paid any "money" for a very long time, perhaps not in their entire life.
http://annavonreitz.com/bankruptcyofus.pdf

All our transactions are in debt currencies. They can not be stored and retain value because nothing backs it but the faith of the users, and is constantly inflated, ie, devalued, by the bankers. Real money can be stored because it is a real asset. Gold and silver remain the same in storage. Current prices are controlled by the bankers to keep their fiat currency alive.

The speech is short, and I encourage you all to read it because Congressman Traficant summarizes the reality of the Federal Reserve succinctly.

SPF · Dec 12, 2019

AvisG said:
And this is, of course, precisely what I would expect someone in my VAST MAJORITY category to say! Your relationship with God is not for me to judge, and I don't. I simply observe. I simply observe that, for 99.99999999% of those who say the sorts of things you have said, their real God is Money. But this too is just a guesstimate, and perhaps you are the exception.

Really? my wife and I are foster parents, who devote our time and energy to loving those in need. We give away 90% of our income, and live off 10. We live debt free so that we can appropriately and responsibly use the money that God gives us for His glory. I could sit down with you and account for every dime my family uses and how we use it. Can you do that? You make up statistics, you make judgments, it's ignorant Christians like you that insult others, but who probably aren't even tithing on a regular basis themselves.

AlexDTX · Dec 12, 2019

SPF said:
it's ignorant Christians like you that insult others, but who probably aren't even tithing on a regular basis themselves.

This kind of folly is rampant online in general, and in this forum, as well. I have been a fool in making such statements, too, about people. Yet, the truth is, we know next to nothing about everyone online and have no true basis for judgment. I, too, have been on the receiving end of these foolish judgments by people who know nothing about me. You have my sympathy and understanding.

AvisG · Dec 12, 2019

AlexDTX said:
One never desires what one already has.

This is clearly not true, especially with money. The lust for money, like sexual lust, is insatiable. I had one fantastically wealthy grandmother and two alcoholic parents. By the time the dust had settled, I had a few advantages but scarcely enough to have eliminated the lust for money if I had fed it.

AlexDTX said:
I think this is a profound statement. Money as an idol, is what you mean. The difficulty of resisting falling into this trap is caused by the material consciousness inundating us by corporations greedily seeking greater profits. Thus it is repeated over and over by advertisements, entertainment, peer pressure and material answers to life by public education.

Certainly, money is an idol. There is truth in what you say, but more fundamentally the difficulty with resisting falling into this trap is precisely what Christianity recognizes: human nature.

SPF said:
Really? my wife and I are foster parents, who devote our time and energy to loving those in need. We give away 90% of our income, and live off 10. We live debt free so that we can appropriately and responsibly use the money that God gives us for His glory. I could sit down with you and account for every dime my family uses and how we use it. Can you do that? You make up statistics, you make judgments, it's ignorant Christians like you that insult others, but who probably aren't even tithing on a regular basis themselves.

Considering that I have said precisely nothing about you, and would never be so presumptuous as to reach a conclusion about someone I know absolutely nothing about, you are curiously defensive. Methinks thou doth protest too much, perhaps? Now you're strutting your stuff, which you're certainly entitled to do but which strikes me as a bit inconsistent with who you claim to be. I specifically left open the possibility that perhaps you were one of the exceptions to my observation. Whether you are or aren't is of no concern to me. Your posts, even if true, seem to implicitly recognize the truth of what I have said. Your statements betray that you think you are exceptional, not the norm. And perhaps you are.

AvisG · Dec 12, 2019

SPF said:
it's ignorant Christians like you that insult others, but who probably aren't even tithing on a regular basis themselves.

Well, you certainly got that right. I would never even THINK of tithing. If there is one place where the axiom that Money is God applies with full force, it's the world of churches, denominations and ministries. I am generous DIRECTLY with those in need.

SPF · Dec 12, 2019

AvisG said:
Well, you certainly got that right. I would never even THINK of tithing. If there is one place where the axiom that Money is God applies with full force, it's the world of churches, denominations and ministries. I am generous DIRECTLY with those in need.

This of course is again ignorance at its best. The great thing about local churches is that when Believers gather together and pool their resources, they are able to have a larger impact upon their local area.

As a CFP® professional (and someone who loves the Lord), I am on the board at my local church and help oversee how the money that's gifted is used. I can testify to how much outreach we've been able to accomplish, how many people we've been able to serve, and how much of the community we've been able to reach out to by serving together as a local community of Believers.

For you to say what you did again just displays your total lack of education.

You are called by God not to forsake the fellowship of Believers, I hope you are not doing so. You are called to give generously of all you have because all you have is a gift from God, I hope you are doing so.

AlexDTX · Dec 12, 2019

AvisG said:
This is clearly not true, especially with money. The lust for money, like sexual lust, is insatiable.

Desire and lust are not the same thing. Desire is rooted the natural needs of life. Lust is a perversion of desire into obsession.

AvisG said:
but more fundamentally the difficulty with resisting falling into this trap is precisely what Christianity recognizes: human nature.

The fallen nature does not inherently mean lust. The fallen nature is prone to error, of which corporations are trying to take advantage of to turn it into lust.

Sabertooth · Dec 12, 2019

“And so it was that when [their Master] returned, having received the kingdom, he then commanded these servants, to whom he had given the money, to be called to him, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, ‘Master, your mina has earned ten minas.’ And he said to him, ‘Well done, good servant; because you were faithful in a very little, have authority over ten cities.’" Luke 19:15-17 NKJV

The existence of lust does not invalidate sexual propriety within marriage.
The existence of greed does not invalidate the conscientious use/management of money.

I think that other men's women & "stuff" are pretty, too, but not enough to violate my walk with God that I might pursue them.

AvisG · Dec 12, 2019

SPF said:
As a CFP® professional (and someone who loves the Lord),

Oh, dear, no wonder I hit a raw nerve. 'Nuff said.

SPF said:
For you to say what you did again just displays your total lack of education.

Well, let's see.

As a good Christian (and proud of it, as we can see!) and a CFP to boot (I love the little trademark registration symbol!), you have, in the space of a couple of posts, accused little old moi of "making judgments," of being an "ignorant Christian," of "insulting others," and now of 'displaying ignorance at its best" and having a "total lack of education."

Interesting, eh? "Pot, meet kettle" - isn't that how the saying goes?

Methinks thou doth protest too much. Or did I say that already?

As a CFP, I feel sure you'll get a chuckle out of a portion of my post from the other thread that I didn't previously reproduce here:

I occasionally listen for an hour or so (about as much as I can stand) to "Christian financial advisor" Dan Celia and his "Financial Issues" program on American Family Radio. He characterizes his work as a "ministry." He touts something that he calls "biblically responsible investing," a concept so flawed and utterly bogus that I want to weep. Unbridled greed is "being a good steward" of the "resources" with which God has "blessed you." Caller after caller is obsessed with earning 3.29% rather than 2.47%. Many of them are almost orgasmic over the way Dan's "ministry" has "blessed" them. It's utterly obscene. (Lest you wonder why I listen to AFR at all, I do like to keep in touch with just how crazy this segment of "Christianity" is getting.)

Sabertooth said:
The existence of greed does not invalidate the conscientious use/management of money.

Perhaps, but greed is just a bit inconsistent with Jesus' words in verses such as Matthew 6:24 and Luke 16:13. Those might be worthwhile meditative exercises.

I will bow out since I've had my say and don't wish to hijack the OP's thread. I believe the responses I've received pretty well underscore the points I've made.

Sabertooth · Dec 12, 2019

AvisG said:
Perhaps, but greed is just a bit inconsistent with Jesus' words in...

Why would you conclude from my post that I seek to justify greed?

AvisG · Dec 13, 2019

Sabertooth said:
Why would you conclude from my post that I seek to justify greed?

Why would you conclude from my post that I had concluded from your post that you sought to justify greed?

You made one point about greed, I made another. Greed per se tells us nothing about how someone uses his money (you). Greed is fundamentally inconsistent, at the most basic level, with the Gospel (me).

I am consistently gobsmacked by the seeming lack of reading comprehension on these forums. Since I assume most people aren't simply illiterate, I can only attribute this to gross carelessness and the propensity, common among True Believers of all types, to immediately become enraged and functionally blind at anything they perceive as challenging to their True Beliefs.

For those who got their knickers in a twist, I perhaps should make clear that I am NOT suggesting that the VAST MAJORITY of people are greedy, money-consumed, immoral, unethical, ungodly fiends. That VAST MAJORITY obviously includes a wide spectrum of attitudes toward money and God.

I simply say, "For the VAST MAJORITY of all people, money is more important than God - money is what is worshipped."

That, I believe, is undeniable.

SPF · Dec 13, 2019

AvisG said:
I occasionally listen for an hour or so (about as much as I can stand) to "Christian financial advisor" Dan Celia and his "Financial Issues" program on American Family Radio.

I recommend Kingdom Advisors.

Bottom line is that for Christians, we should all recognize that we work not to make money, but because work is good and God created us to work. With regards to the money we make, all of it belongs to God, and He's the one who is allowing us to have it. If we have that perspective, if we recognize that the money in our checking account isn't actually ours, and that we are called to glorify God and further His kingdom with all the resources He provides us - then hopefully that mindset will put us in check with regards to how we utilize the money we have.

Far too many people attach significance to money. Far too many people judge others based upon how much money they possess. Far too many people think they are more special than others because they have more money. The money and resources we have are all a gift from God, and we should approach the use of it humbly and purposefully.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 13, 2019

The Ekklesia in ACTS, considered nothing their own. Their bodies, minds, souls, hands, eyes, ears, heart,
as well as the buildings they lived in or worked in, the fields, the tools, the blankets, everything is Yahweh's.
Thus, whenever there was any need come up, they spontaneously met it, without resistance (until later, when the truth was lost already), and no one among them had any need not met. (food, clothes, shelter, debt) .....

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 13, 2019

SPF said:
They say 65% of statistics are made up on the spot.

That might only be true though 75% of the time ?

Standing for money

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!

Active Member

Repartee Animal: Quipping the Saints!

Active Member

Well-Known Member

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

Similar threads