Taking a closer look at OSAS - once-saved-always-saved

The thread proves nothing at all. You are free to believe that the English Court was given the only divine translation of Scripture, and that everyone else in the world was not. I do not attack such any idea; I just reject it out of hand. Our faith has a 2000 year tradition, and having an English 16th Century translation being the primary and sufficient source of the Word Of God simply isn't part of that tradition.

Bible Highlighter said:

My link to a thread here at CF proves otherwise. Well, it proves it for those who want to see the truth. Usually folks do not like the idea of the KJV being the perfect Word of God to begin with, and so they mindlessly set out to attack it no matter the evidence that is in support for it. Why? Because it is an authority.

Click to expand...

mark46 said:

The thread proves nothing at all. You are free to believe that the English Court was given the only divine translation of Scripture, and that everyone else in the world was not. I do not attack such any idea; I just reject it out of hand. Our faith has a 2000 year tradition, and having an English 16th Century translation being the primary and sufficient source of the Word Of God simply isn't part of that tradition.

Click to expand...

Truth is objective. My thread on the KJV proves that. Anyways, the thread topic is not about that. I was merely replying to what another person said. The point of topic of this thread is relooking at OSAS. I believe OSAS is still a belief that is unbiblical. Relooking at OSAS from a more optimistic view does not change the fact that OSAS is unbiblical in all its forms.

Bible Highlighter said:

My link to a thread here at CF proves otherwise. Well, it proves it for those who want to see the truth. Usually folks do not like the idea of the KJV being the perfect Word of God to begin with, and so they mindlessly set out to attack it no matter the evidence that is in support for it. Why? Because it is an authority.

Click to expand...

That’s ridicules that a translation of one bible against others is authoritative. Consider also the context around when it was written and the objections to that authority in that era.

BobRyan said:

I think you are referencing Romans 11 saying it is only the Jews that are being addressed in that chapter? Is that right?

Click to expand...

That's wrong. I did not say he was talking to Jews. I said he was talking about the Jews, concerning being grafted in again.

BobRyan said:

Seems like a difficult stretch to insert "electedness as a nation" into "13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. ."

Just which part of the text above would you replace with "electedness as a nation"? I should think that exercise would be exhausting.

Click to expand...

I would not replace any part of it. I said "Electedness as a nation", not referring to the Gentiles, but to the Jews, and only as a backdrop for the discourse Paul gives concerning "grafting them in again", etc.

BobRyan said:

2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you mean that to oppose what I said, or to augment it.

jahel said:

That’s ridicules that a translation of one bible against others is authoritative. Consider also the context around when it was written and the objections to that authority in that era.

Click to expand...

I think it is equally ridiculous to believe that folks do not have a final Word of authority in the world language today that they can easily understand. You can check out my reasons here why I believe the KJV is divine:

Reasons why I believe the KJV is the divinely inspired perfect Word of God.

But this thread topic is not about the KJV. It is about OSAS (Which is a belief that I view as being extremely unbiblical and immoral).

OK Sonship is a key to this discussion.

Our Father will never condemn a Son.

Col 1:9-14

9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Being adopted into His family - transferred from one kingdom to another. So yes Paul encourages obedience and faithfulness but this does not qualify us to share in the inheritance of the saints of Light. Being rescued by Him does. From then we have Redemption and the forgiveness of sins.

This crystallises my position.

You will notice that He has qualified us (past tense)

This is not reversible.

We are permanently transferred from one Kingdom to another and have a new Father and an eternal Sonship.

Carl Emerson said:

OK Sonship is a key to this discussion.

Our Father will never condemn a Son.

Col 1:9-14

9 For this reason also, since the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you and to ask that you may be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10 so that you will walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all respects, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God; 11 strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness and patience; joyously 12 giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in Light 13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Being adopted into His family - transferred from one kingdom to another. So yes Paul encourages obedience and faithfulness but this does not qualify us to share in the inheritance of the saints of Light. Being rescued by Him does. From then we have Redemption and the forgiveness of sins.

This crystallises my position.

You will notice that He has qualified us (past tense)

This is not reversible.

We are permanently transferred from one Kingdom to another and have a new Father and an eternal Sonship.

Click to expand...

"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 8:12).

"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."
(Ephesians 5:6) (NKJV).

Context:

"But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them."
(Ephesians 5:3-7) (NKJV).

Bible Highlighter said:

"But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
(Matthew 8:12).


"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."
(Ephesians 5:6) (NKJV).

Click to expand...

Matt 8:12
This was a reference to unbelieving Israelites.
Eph 5:6
The Born Again are Saints of Light not sons of disobedience.

The Father abandoned the Son on the Cross so that we - His adopted Sons - would never be abandoned.

Hmm

I suspect that part of the disagreement is that "salvation" for some includes justification, sanctification and glorification.

As my mentor used to teach
I was saved when I accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior (actually 2000 years ago, but that is another point)
I am being saved as I live each day abiding in Him
I will be saved when I am resurrected on the Last Day
=======
Some say that being saved happens in an instant at the time of the decision to accept God's gift.

Others consider that salvation is a process that continues throughout our life, and that, of course, Jesus will decide in the end who are His friends.

I suspect that this is a large part of the "works" debate.

Carl Emerson said:

.

Of course we abide in Him and not abiding means we lose out on the blessings of the Kingdom, but not salvation.
.


.

Click to expand...

The elect are NOT the sons of disobedience.

Bible Highlighter said:

.
"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience."
(Ephesians 5:6) (NKJV).
..

Click to expand...

mark46 said:

The elect are NOT the sons of disobedience.

Click to expand...

The word "elect" can be used to refer to the already saved saints in whom God chooses based on His foreknowledge.

1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,"
(1 Peter 1:1-2).

Meaning, God knows who is going to accept Him, and as a result they are the "elect."

However, the word "election" can refer to being a chosen nation, but that does not mean that nation is saved or living in God's will, kind of like Israel.

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." (Romans 11:28).

This above verse is talking about Israel. The nation of Israel is a part of the election of God. They are a chosen nation, but they were not always doing God's will, and they rejected their Messiah. Granted, in the end times, they will be driven to the wall to repent and accept Jesus as their Messiah, but that has not happened yet. Again, God knows that in the end, Israel will be a saved nation. So they are a part of the "election" of God.

Judas was a chosen disciple but that does not mean He remained in that office. The Scriptures say he fell by his transgression. He betrayed the Lord. Yet, he was one of the chosen disciples of God.

We are to make our own calling and election as being sure.

"Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
(2 Peter 1:10).

We are told to put on certain qualities as identifying of the Elect of God.

"Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" (Colossians 3:12).

Our fate is not chosen already. We can either be like the Elect of God, or we can be like a son of disobedience. The choice is ours to be as the elect of God if we cooperate with the Lord and His plan of salvation for our life. We can make our calling and election sure by doing the things that Peter suggests.

For God desires to have all men to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4); For God is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe (See: 1 Timothy 4:10).

Many are called, but few are chosen.
We are chosen by God by our own actions towards Him.
God chooses us ahead of time because He knows what we are going to do long before we were born.

mark46 said:

The elect are NOT the sons of disobedience.

Click to expand...

Exactly my point also...

mark46 said:

The elect are NOT the sons of disobedience.

Click to expand...

The point is that they were not elected to damnation. God never desired for them to perish as their only option. They were called children. Yet, these children or sons perished. Not because God chose them to perish. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved (John 3:17).

Please read Matthew 13:41-42.

Okay. One more time. Just in case folks are not getting it.

Jesus says,


Jesus says whoever (meaning anybody) commits sin, they are a SERVANT of sin.

Person who sins = Servant of sin.

Jesus continues to talk about this SERVANT of sin.


Jesus is saying that the servant of sin will not abide in His house forever.

Servant of sin = Will not abide in the house forever.

We see this illustrated to us in Matthew 13:41-42. It says,


In other words, the Son of man (JESUS) will send forth his angels and they will gather out of HIS KINGDOM (Which is Christ's kingdom) all who offend (make others to sin), and who do iniquity (do sinful things) and they (the SERVANT of sin that does not abide in the house forever) and they shall be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Again, we see this same truth expressed in Matthew 7:23 (cf. with Matthew 7:26-27).

Okay, now a son is one who obeys Jesus or does righteousness. Yep. It's true. The Bible says it using other words.

"...you know that every one that does righteousness is born of him."
(1 John 2:29).

To be born of God is to be a son.
Those who do RIGHTEOUSNESS are born of Him.

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

John is a straight shooter. He is telling things like they are. He is saying that the way to tell the difference between the children of God (or sons of God) vs. the children of the devil (the sons of disobedience) is by the fact that if they do not righteousness, they are not of God, and neither is the person who does not love his brother, too.

As you clearly insist on salvation by works, will you be trusting you own righteousness or His at Judgement??

Carl Emerson said:

As you clearly insist on salvation by works, will you be trusting you own righteousness or His at Judgement??

Click to expand...

Please go back and read the recent verses I posted really slowly. They are plain and easy to understand if you take the time to slowly read them. If you disagree with my understanding on them, then by all means you should have an alternative explanation that is equally (if not even more) enlightening.

Carl Emerson said:

As you clearly insist on salvation by works, will you be trusting you own righteousness or His at Judgement??

Click to expand...

Also, for the record, I believe we are saved initially and ultimately by God's grace through faith, and Sanctification is the next step or stage in the salvation process. It is not works alone that saves a person. It's both Grace, and Sanctification that saves! (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). In addition, the works a believer does are not their own, but it is God who does the good work through them. So all praise and glory goes to the Lord for any good work done in a believer's life. So your understanding on my view of Soteriology is totally inaccurate.