Is it possible to be born again more than one time?

Bible Highlighter said:

The son was dead spiritually when he spent his inheritance on prostitutes.

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I think it's more concrete than that. I think his "death" was exactly the same death spoken of in Genesis and 1 John.

It is the death of our relationship with God. Adam "died" but he was still alive. He was never going to live forever. It wasn't mortality that died, he was already mortal. Were he created immortal at the beginning, there would be no need to remove the tree of life from the garden. Adam already had an expiration date. He died to God and was restored to God, though his choice had physical earthly consequences as well.

Dave L said:

It applies to not habitually sinning.

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I already explained that. John wasn't talking about habitual sin. There isn't any language there that talks about habitual sin. That word does not exist in the text.

This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth.

Al Touthentop said:

re considered righteous and it is each individual who is responsible. And what does he say is the result of a person's own righteous obedience or iniquitous disobedience, are either life or death. He labels a man righteous himself there. So if he sees a man as being righteous, why would you call it into question?

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That’s the point. Even a man’s own righteousness is not enough. If he sins that previous righteousness does not save him from death.

It is the righteousness of the person according to the Law. How does that hold up to Apostolic teachings?

Bible Highlighter said:

This is why beliefs such as Calvinism and or Eternal Security don't work because they cannot be illustrated by way of real world example successfully.

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Never according to the straw men we see here.

Al Touthentop said:

"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity, and dies in it, it is because of the iniquity which he has done that he dies. "

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Al Touthentop said:

Peter tells us we must "work out" our own salvation. Jesus called Abel righteous and he taught his disciples and anyone who would listen that obedience to God was our calling. This doesn't mean that we save ourselves, it means that by doing what God commanded, we do the things which save us. We didn't invent the works that God prepared and created us to walk in. But do them we must if we want to become righteous in his eyes.

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Whose righteousness saves?

Bible Highlighter said:

This is why beliefs such as Calvinism and or Eternal Security don't work because they cannot be illustrated by way of real world example successfully. We have to distort or twist reality in order to make such beliefs work. Yet, the Lord made real world examples to illustrate spiritual truth all the time with his parables.

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You can demonstrate in the real world how one loses eternal life?

redleghunter said:

That’s the point. Even a man’s own righteousness is not enough. If he sins that previous righteousness does not save him from death.

It is the righteousness of the person according to the Law. How does that hold up to Apostolic teachings?

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It holds up perfectly well. The new Covenant is itself a law. James calls it the perfect law of liberty in fact.

"Why do you call me 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things I told you to do?"

God in Ezekiel says a man's righteousness is enough. Jesus says that it is our duty to do what he commanded. When Paul taught that "works" cannot save a person, he wasn't ever vague as to which works he was talking about. In Romans and Galatians he is talking about works of the law of Moses, not just any works.

In Ephesians he's talking about works of merit. Works that men invent seeking to justify themselves before God. ("and this not of yourselves.") In fact, in Ephesians 2 1-5 Paul explains that they were saved when they were baptized. So clearly he's not excluding all works from salvation. Jesus himself called belief a "work of God."

The works Christians do, are the works that God created us to walk in. They aren't our works. We don't become Christians by making up our beds every day or walking little old ladies across the street, we become Christians by obeying the gospel.

Al Touthentop said:

God in Ezekiel says a man's righteousness is enough.

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Enough for what? All that is said is the man’s righteousness would keep him physically alive. The promise of the Mosaic convent was life, a producing farm, fertility and long life. Says nothing about a man’s righteousness is equivalent to eternal life. Notice all the chapters before and after. Judah was to be judged and those who were blessed to be part of the remnant by God’s Grace would live and some young enough would return.

I would consider reading Ezekiel 36:22-32 where God actually lays out the conditions of the New Covenant.

Al Touthentop said:

In fact, in Ephesians 2 1-5 Paul explains that they were saved when they were baptized. So clearly he's not excluding all works from salvation. Jesus himself called belief a "work of God."

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Baptism does not appear in those verses.

Al Touthentop said:

The works Christians do, are the works that God created us to walk in. They aren't our works. We don't become Christians by making up our beds every day or walking little old ladies across the street, we become Christians by obeying the gospel.

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Of course.

redleghunter said:

Whose righteousness saves?

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Jesus' of course. But it is not effective until we seek his righteousness by obeying the gospel. God never had any problems calling men righteous. Not because they did works of merit, but because they obeyed him. It's not a cause for boasting as Jesus explained to his apostles in the Parable of the master and the servant.

"So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do."

By the way, this is the parable Jesus told his disciples after they asked of him "Lord, increase our faith."

He reminded them who is the master in their relationship. He commanded them to have faith and they turned around and asked him to give them their faith. He then rebuked them with this parable. You serve the master, the master doesn't serve you. And when you have served him, you don't boast about what you did as if you were 'profitable.'

Believing is a command. And it starts the whole ball rolling. As a result of our belief we obey and then God calls us righteous.

Al Touthentop said:

When Paul taught that "works" cannot save a person, he wasn't ever vague as to which works he was talking about. In Romans and Galatians he is talking about works of the law of Moses, not just any works.

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Yes but to the all Gentile audience in Ephesians he speaks of works generally in Ephesians 2:8-10.

Talking to Gentiles who were never circumsized or kept any of the ceremonial laws, it would be futile to discuss this. In Galatians the Gentiles there were under the influence of Judiazers so Paul had to be specific.

redleghunter said:

Enough for what? All that is said is the man’s righteousness would keep him physically alive.

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He wasn't talking about physical death. He was talking about spiritual death and life, a man's relationship to God. And at the time, the law of Moses was in effect. Thus, a man was at that time made Righteous by his obedience to the law.

Paul's sermon in Romans was about trying to perform to the standards of a law which had been rendered obsolete, replaced by the New Covenant. I could go to Ezekiel 36 for information on the New Law, but what is not revealed in that chapter is made clear by the New Testament. It does not supersede the New Testament's full revelation of the mystery spoken of in Ezekiel 36 and other places.

redleghunter said:

Yes but to the all Gentile audience in Ephesians he speaks of works generally in Ephesians 2:8-10.

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Absolutely not true. He specifically tells them, you're not saved by works "of yourselves." He's talking about works of merit. And he leads up to this by reminding them that the gospel's commands, the works which God prepared for us to walk in, were planned before the foundation of the word.

Not our works, God's works. And we are required to do them, if it is our choice to be in relationship with him.

Al Touthentop said:

Jesus conversation with Nicodemus did not make reference to things outside the Bible. He was making reference to what any Rabbi ought to know about the teachings of the Law and Prophets.

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I know, I have made that very clear. My point was, Nicodemus did not seem to understand what was being said and I have only SUGGESTED that PERHAPS this might be because, since "born again" IS A PHRASE used outside of the NT (in the Judean culture of that day) but in a way that DIFFERS from how Yeshua was using it... that Nico was simply not able to catch the spiritual change in meaning. It was merely a suggestion. Have a great day.

zoidar said:

The Bible refers as we know to be born again as to when a believer comes to saving faith in the living God. We also know that some believers lose their faith to later in life come to faith again. Does this mean such a person has been born again twice?

One scenario might be that the believer never was born again the first time. But then how do we know the second time is a true rebirth?

It may also be so that the first time was a real rebirth, but the Holy Spirit was quenched, and the person left Christianity practically, but still had faith somewhere down inside (possibly denied), and coming back to faith "again" was simply relighting the spark, the Holy Spirit that was there inside.

The third option is that the person was reborn, then lost his faith which got the Holy Spirit to leave, to later in life be born again a second time and once again receiving the Holy Spirit.

Can a person be born again more than one time? Please back up with scriptures (and, or with Church fathers).

Christ love,
P

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We can become children of God-and then forfeit our adoption. We can come back home like prodigals-but then leave home again. We're exhorted to strive, be vigilant, persevere, etc-and we have no way of predicting our own success in an absolute sense at the end of the day.

redleghunter said:

Baptism does not appear in those verses.

Of course.

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The word baptism isn't used, true. However it is what he's talking about here.

Ephesians 2:1-6
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus"

The word baptism does not have to be here for this to be talking about baptism. It most definitely is because as Paul explains in Romans 6, the way that a person is made alive, is by being baptized into Christ's death and raised up with Christ (born again). How were we made alive together with Christ?

"Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."

"Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Ken Rank said:

I know, I have made that very clear. My point was, Nicodemus did not seem to understand what was being said and I have only SUGGESTED that PERHAPS this might be because, since "born again" IS A PHRASE used outside of the NT (in the Judean culture of that day) but in a way that DIFFERS from how Yeshua was using it... that Nico was simply not able to catch the spiritual change in meaning. It was merely a suggestion. Have a great day.

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I didn't mean to create a controversy. I just thought you were saying that Jesus in this instance was directing Nicodemus to think outside the law for his information. I believe that because he used that word "teacher" he was being quite specific as to the law itself rather than any colloquialisms of the period.

Al Touthentop said:

I didn't mean to create a controversy. I just thought you were saying that Jesus in this instance was directing Nicodemus to think outside the law for his information. I believe that because he used that word "teacher" he was being quite specific as to the law itself rather than any colloquialisms of the period.

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No, I guess I misunderstood you.

That said... if a word is used all the time around you and it is defined as ____, and then somebody else comes by EVEN IF we know they are teaching about a specific thing, and they use that phrase, our first instinct will be to define it as we always. Nicodemus probably got the point fine... it just took him a second. Yeshua didn't have to ride him in order for him to understand, he simply showed surprise and continued teaching.

Have a great day.

Al Touthentop said:

Jesus' of course. But it is not effective until we seek his righteousness by obeying the gospel. God never had any problems calling men righteous. Not because they did works of merit, but because they obeyed him. It's not a cause for boasting as Jesus explained to his apostles in the Parable of the master and the servant.

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So we obey and then we receive the righteousness of God. Can I have a Bible passage on that. This is what Paul says after saying “having been justified by faith”:


And here:


And here:


Not seeing obedience as the vehicle of obtaining the Righteousness of God. Frankly the Apostolic teaching is that it is Faith. In fact Paul devoted an entire chapter 4 in Romans on righteousness being reckoned or imputed based on faith.

Al Touthentop said:

By the way, this is the parable Jesus told his disciples after they asked of him "Lord, increase our faith."

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Indeed notice the operative word. Faith.

fhansen said:

We can become children of God-and then forfeit our adoption. We can come back home like prodigals-but then leave home again. We're exhorted to strive, be vigilant, persevere, etc-and we have no way of predicting our own success in an absolute sense at the end of the day.

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I'm not so sure about that. I think God want's us to have assurance. He keeps his promises and he was clear about the requirements. If we're keeping our end of the bargain, and our conscience should be our guide in this, then we have full assurance. As Paul said in Romans, "There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."

John's first letter wants us to have the knowledge that we are in fellowship with God. Knowing is possible he says. God wanted us to know. He doesn't want us unsure of ourselves and thinking that at any moment we're on the brink of hell fire. He wanted us to be confident. Not of course triumphal or anything, but he went through a lot of trouble to bring us that knowledge. If we've been born again and are keeping his commandments, we are in fellowship with him. And if we stumble, he is faithful to forgive us.