packermann

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Ok. Aquinas' point is that self-love is necessary and normal, natural and created, but the "self-love" you describe is actually narcissim, arrogance, pride, not self-love.

To love our neighbor as ourselves means, in regard to ourselves, to be balanced, to neither exalt oneself as pride seeks to have us do, nor to debase oneself with shame which is the flip side of pride (and not humility either), when we fail to live up to its excessive standards. It's to recognize and appreciate the basic goodness in all of God's creation.


But it seems to me that there is a lot of debasing in the Catholic mass itself.

Lord, I am not worthy for you to come under my roof...

I confess my sins... that I have greatly sinned - through my fault (beat your breast), through my fault (beat your breast), through my most grievous fault (beat your breast).

Is that not debasing?
 
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Dave-W

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Yeah, that was was weird. To be consistent, wouldn't the pastor take a job as the janitor of the church? I doubt he did that, though.
They believed that tithes should ONLY go for pastors' salaries, meaning that you should in general be able to have a full time pastor for every 10 families. And all of them from the senior pastor on down did their share of bathroom cleaning.
 
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packermann

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This has absolutely nothing to do with anything I wrote. God loves man enormously, unfathomably- He's not intending for us to hate ourselves. That would amount to false humility at best.

I am not sure I ever used the word self-hatred. I agree that would be false humility. Christ did not hate Himself, and he was meek and humble of heart

Neither am I saying that we should not feel good about ourselves. I feel great about myself. My issue is how you go about feeling about yourself.

There used to be a Stuart Smalley skit on Saturday Day Night Live, where Stuart Smalley would look into the mirror and say "I'm good enough and smart enough - and doggone it! People like me". People laughed, because the Stuart Smalley seemed to have an incredible low self-esteem even though he said this ever week. I had a very, very low self-image. I have cerebral palsey. I was and still am fat. Kids made fun of me throughout grade school and high school. In college, I read all the self-help books I could find. Some were Christian books. But no matter how much I repeated to myself that I had value because God love me and created me, it did not work.

What I found that worked was accepting the fact that I was never going to be as good as the next guy, at least by worldly standards. I would never be as good-looking, or out-going, or athletic as others. But I did not wallow in my misery. I forgot about myself and lived for God and for others. And my self-esteem increased. I felt great about myself. And not only that - people wanted to be with me! I am reminded of Christ saying that whoever seeks to gain his own life (or self-esteem) will lose it but whoever loses his life (or self esteem) for Christ's sake will gain it.

People are always working on feeling good about themselves. I am just saying that if they humbly place the glory of God and the needs of others over their own needs then they will feel good about themselves. And they will be a joy to be with!
 
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packermann

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They believed that tithes should ONLY go for pastors' salaries, meaning that you should in general be able to have a full time pastor for every 10 families. And all of them from the senior pastor on down did their share of bathroom cleaning.

Tithing is based on one verse in the Old Testament.Never taught in the New. And tithing went for more than just the priest's salary.

Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this,” says the LORD Almighty, “and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that there will not be room enough to store
Malachi 3:10

They did not bring money. They brought food, and it was given not only to the priests. It was given to the poor. This was their taxes.
 
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packermann

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They believed that tithes should ONLY go for pastors' salaries, meaning that you should in general be able to have a full time pastor for every 10 families. And all of them from the senior pastor on down did their share of bathroom cleaning.

I notice that you used to be Pentecostal. So was I. And I think that we both had bad experiences. After I graduated from seminary I asked the senior Assemblies of God pastor if there was anything in his church I could do. He made me their janitor. I wasn't that I was humble. It was that I was not stupid. I knew that turning him down would ruin my chances.

I saw a lot of legalism and pride in that church. After being there for two years I could not take it any more. In looking back, I think that the spiritual ecstasies they got themselves into (tongues, being slain in the spirit, etc.) made them feel superior to others who did not experience them. I notice that I as also feeling superior to my non-Pentecostal. But I realized that in obedience to God and love to others I was not any better than I was before I became a Pentecostal.
 
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fhansen

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But it seems to me that there is a lot of debasing in the Catholic mass itself.

Lord, I am not worthy for you to come under my roof...

I confess my sins... that I have greatly sinned - through my fault (beat your breast), through my fault (beat your breast), through my most grievous fault (beat your breast).

Is that not debasing?
Yes, it's an acknowledgment of our sins-not out of an innate worthlessness (which some denominations almost seem to gloat about having) but from the understanding of our failure to live up to the value or potential God has created us for. And, yes, as an act of humility it's good in general for the purpose of opposing our own pride. And I do understand that the term "self-love" can be abused-or simply used to mean selfishness, self-aggrandizement, etc. I was using it in the way Aquinas used it to draw out a distinction. And that distinction relates to the Church's understanding of evil and how evil has no reality of its own and so is always a detraction from or perversion of good, God having created everything good. So pride has to be based on and detract from something God-created.

Just as lust is a corruption or exploitation of the natural carnal appetite, or gluttony is an abuse of the good and natural appetite for food, pride is said to be a disordered desire for ones own excellence, to "love" oneself too much in a sense. But in the process we're actually trading the truth for a lie, sacrificing our true selves for a warped version, ashamed of who we simply really are.

I was raised Catholic BTW, but left and later was AOG. Didn't work out for me either, obviously. :) Long story.
 
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Dave-W

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Tithing is based on one verse in the Old Testament.Never taught in the New. And tithing went for more than just the priest's salary.
A fair point, but probably off topic in this thread.
 
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Dave-W

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I notice that you used to be Pentecostal. So was I. And I think that we both had bad experiences.
To a certain degree, I still am pentecostal, or charismatic. But I have seen the excesses, the legalism, the insanity; and want no part of those things.
 
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98cwitr

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"Love your neighbor as your self."

Do I really want to be loved by a neighbor (as he loves himself) if he is suicidal?

Christ qualifies that here:

John 15

9 “As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one’s life for one’s friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.
 
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Radagast

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Here are my thoughts on how humility is the key to all the other virtues. The opposite of humilty is pride. Pride is a barrier to all virtues and all happiness.

Which is why, traditionally, Pride is the worst of the "7 deadly sins."

In Dante's Purgatorio, which is an allegory of the Christian life, Pride is the first level, the most important sin to deal with.
 
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packermann

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Yes, it's an acknowledgment of our sins-not out of an innate worthlessness (which some denominations almost seem to gloat about having) but from the understanding of our failure to live up to the value or potential God has created us for.
I once heard that we all have worth but we are unworthy. One soul under grace has more worth than all the stars of heaven. Christ died for us because we have great worth to God - we are made in the image of God. But we are so unworthy.

And, yes, as an act of humility it's good in general for the purpose of opposing our own pride. And I do understand that the term "self-love" can be abused-or simply used to mean selfishness, self-aggrandizement, etc. I was using it in the way Aquinas used it to draw out a distinction. And that distinction relates to the Church's understanding of evil and how evil has no reality of its own and so is always a detraction from or perversion of good, God having created everything good. So pride has to be based on and detract from something God-created.

Yes, "self-love" means something differently than it did in Aquinas' time. Today, it means selfishness and self-aggrandizement. Back in Aquinas' time, if you love someone that means you want the best for him - and the best for him would be heaven. Today in secular society, most do not take heaven seriously. So now wanting the best for somebody is wanting them to become rich or famous, or at least happy in this life.

I have read from atheists that they are more moral than believers because atheists do good for no reason but we believers do good for an eternal reward or because we have received an eternal reward. So they accuse believers of being selfish. And atheists are purely altruistic. But I think that this is where Aquinas' definition comes in. There is nothing selfish to obey Christ because we are concerned for our eternal welfare. That is a good kind of self-love.

Just as lust is a corruption or exploitation of the natural carnal appetite, or gluttony is an abuse of the good and natural appetite for food, pride is said to be a disordered desire for ones own excellence, to "love" oneself too much in a sense. But in the process we're actually trading the truth for a lie, sacrificing our true selves for a warped version, ashamed of who we simply really are.

I am not so sure we can ever have a too great a desire in pursuing one's own holiness. I know that I have no danger in that! But I can see that the desire for personal holiness can be corrupted into doing it for the wrong motive - instead of doing it to please God to do it to impress others. So I think that pursuing excellence becomes wrong when we do it to enhance our image to others.


I was raised Catholic BTW, but left and later was AOG. Didn't work out for me either, obviously. :) Long story.

I had a very similar experience - raised Catholic, left it in college, hopped around churches including AOC, only to then return home after about 12 to 15 years.
 
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fhansen

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I am not so sure we can ever have a too great a desire in pursuing one's own holiness. I know that I have no danger in that! But I can see that the desire for personal holiness can be corrupted into doing it for the wrong motive - instead of doing it to please God to do it to impress others. So I think that pursuing excellence becomes wrong when we do it to enhance our image to others.
Well, let me put it this way, to pursue being the self that God created us to be is to pursue true excellence, holiness, righteousness, justice. It's to be whole, to be perfect as Scripture exhorts us to be. So the Church, teaching that God made His world in a "state of journeying to perfection", also teaches this:
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.
 
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packermann

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Well, let me put it this way, to pursue being the self that God created us to be is to pursue true excellence, holiness, righteousness, justice. It's to be whole, to be perfect as Scripture exhorts us to be. So the Church, teaching that God made His world in a "state of journeying to perfection", also teaches this:
1731 Freedom is the power, rooted in reason and will, to act or not to act, to do this or that, and so to perform deliberate actions on one's own responsibility. By free will one shapes one's own life. Human freedom is a force for growth and maturity in truth and goodness; it attains its perfection when directed toward God, our beatitude.

1732 As long as freedom has not bound itself definitively to its ultimate good which is God, there is the possibility of choosing between good and evil, and thus of growing in perfection or of failing and sinning. This freedom characterizes properly human acts. It is the basis of praise or blame, merit or reproach.

But again, I look at Matthew 10:39:

Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

We find ourselves by losing ourselves for the sake of Christ. True freedom is found by servitude to Christ. He who sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34). Maturity in the spiritual life is found by being like a little child (Matthew 18:3).

So, yes, God wants us to find ourselves, to grown in maturity, to be fully human. But we do not seek to find ourselves, or seek to grow in maturity, or seek to to become fully human. We seek first His kingdom and these things will be added to us (Matthew 6:33). We seek to follow Christ. We seek to imitate Christ. And since Christ is fully human (and fully God), that means that by following Christ we will find our humanity.
 
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fhansen

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But again, I look at Matthew 10:39:

Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.

We find ourselves by losing ourselves for the sake of Christ. True freedom is found by servitude to Christ. He who sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34). Maturity in the spiritual life is found by being like a little child (Matthew 18:3).

So, yes, God wants us to find ourselves, to grown in maturity, to be fully human. But we do not seek to find ourselves, or seek to grow in maturity, or seek to to become fully human. We seek first His kingdom and these things will be added to us (Matthew 6:33). We seek to follow Christ. We seek to imitate Christ. And since Christ is fully human (and fully God), that means that by following Christ we will find our humanity.
Yes, I can't disagree with that. It's probably better stated to say that God gifts us with our true selves the more we humble ourselves and pursue Him and His righteousness before all else. Either way our perfection (His desire for us) is arrived at in this manner. It's all grace at the end of the day. I just see a lot of falsehood out there, more everyday. A lot of people far from home.
 
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packermann

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Yes, I can't disagree with that. It's probably better stated to say that God gifts us with our true selves the more we humble ourselves and pursue Him and His righteousness before all else. Either way our perfection (His desire for us) is arrived at in this manner. It's all grace at the end of the day. I just see a lot of falsehood out there, more everyday. A lot of people far from home.

I agree.
 
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I would add that the fullness of God's revelation of Himself was Christ being poured out on the Cross, and through that we see God's humility. Before we can say anything else about God's character, we know God first and foremost as a humble God, and it is through that lens that we see God for who He is, and it is through that humility that we understand everything else about Him.

As such, humility is the beginning of our own path as Christians, and the gateway to all other godly virtue.
 
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fhansen

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And that revelation, that God is actually humble, is amazing. Our catechism teaches that, at the Fall, man "conceived a distorted image" of God. And that's the image that we sort of default to: a God who's distant, aloof in His superiority, angry, proud, "jealous of His prerogatives" as it's said. This is the "god" we play whenever we abuse power and authority over others.

But Jesus came to set the record straight when the time was ripe by fully revealing a very different God, a God truly worthy of our trust, love, and obedience. And 1 Cor 13:4-8 happens to describe the nature of this God, who could otherwise squash us like a bug, pretty well.

Amazing.
 
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