Trump to sign order to combat anti-semitism (not really making Judaism a nationality)

FireDragon76 · Dec 11, 2019

Albion said:
This particular move on the part of the President, if I am understanding it correctly, does seem questionable, but there is no doubt that anti-Semitism has become a frightening feature of the far left recently, among those young Congresswomen called "the Squad" and other national figures, and that violence against synagogues and etc. in the USA is something we would never have expected only a few years ago. The President at least knows it is right to confront the problem, although this may not be the best way to do it.

The attacks on synagogues are distressing but this kind of anti-Semitism is really a purview of the far rights and its mythologies.

Dave L · Dec 11, 2019

Albion said:
Technically, that's so. It's also a favorite claim made by Hamas and its friends. But the term "anti-Semitism" has assumed a meaning that is more specific.

But not accurate.

Albion · Dec 11, 2019

Dave L said:
But not accurate.

Well, it cannot be inaccurate if that is what it means. It's like calling white people "white" when hardly any are actually pure white in color, just as "blacks" are not actually the exact color that this word suggests. You made your point and it would be a good one for Jeopardy or some other trivia contest, but this is the way language works.

Dave L · Dec 11, 2019

Judaism is a religion entered through circumcision. None were admitted unless circumcised on the 8th day or in conversion. Many proselytes became Jews although foreigners.

DaisyDay · Dec 11, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
Exactly. The whole point of the state of Israel was that Jews did not in fact have a nation of their own. Unless we are speaking of Israel, it is meaningless in the modern world to speak of a "Jewish nation" outside a religious context. Which is exactly why this executive order is unconstitutional.

American Jews are American nationality. By declaring them a nation onto themselves, he is separating them out.

civilwarbuff said:
Hmmmm, wonder what that makes the Vatican then?

Vatican City has been an independent city-state since the Lateran Pacts of 1929. The Vatican can refer to the pope and his officials. What what has that got to do with declaring Judaism a nationality? That would be like declaring Catholics or Baptists a separate nationality.

Hazelelponi · Dec 11, 2019

Dave L said:
Judaism is a religion entered through circumcision. None were admitted unless circumcised on the 8th day or in conversion. Many proselytes became Jews although foreigners.

But Judaism is in fact a religion - not a race.

Semite, as a race, includes me and a portion of middle eastern peoples...

It's going to be a difficult task, legally, to declare only followers of Judaism a race - although they are a distinct people in largest part.

As someone else suggested - Hebrew is a better term.

DaisyDay · Dec 11, 2019

civilwarbuff said:
The US is also an independent state.....
Independent States in the World - United States Department of State
Note 1: In this listing, the term “independent state” refers to a people politically organized into a sovereign state with a definite territory recognized as independent by the US.

Now, look up "sovereign state" and your questions should be answered.

civilwarbuff said:
Hmmmm, didn't realize we had an ambassador to the independent state of Catholic. Where exactly is that located?

Our ambassador is to Vatican City, which is Catholic. The embassy is located in the Vatican, see : https://va.usembassy.gov/embassy/vatican-visit/ The Vatican is in Italy surrounded by Rome.
Google Maps

Albion · Dec 11, 2019

DaisyDay said:
Vatican City has been an independent city-state since the Lateran Pacts of 1929. The Vatican can refer to the pope and his officials. What what has that got to do with declaring Judaism a nationality? That would be like declaring Catholics or Baptists a separate nationality.

At first I misunderstood your meaning here. It is that Vatican City is a nation and not a religion, and that is correct. The president's initiative is questionable in its present form.

Maria Billingsley · Dec 11, 2019

essentialsaltes said:
President Donald Trump will sign an executive order on Wednesday to interpret Judaism as a nationality and not just a religion, a move that the Trump administration believes will fight what they perceive as anti-Semitism on college campuses, a White House official said.

The move would trigger a portion of the federal Civil Rights Act of 1964 that requires educational institutions receiving federal funding to not discriminate based on national origin, according to senior administration officials.

Religion is not covered in that portion of the law so the administration would have to interpret Judaism as a nationality in order to potentially punish universities for violations.
Jared Kushner, the President's son-in-law and a senior White House adviser, pushed for the move, according to the Times.

Only Trump could give a nation to the Jews!

Reminds me of Lincoln -- How many legs does a dog have if you call his tail a leg? Four. Saying that a tail is a leg doesn't make it a leg.

And Reagan, of course.

Christians are also a target.
The Persecution of Christians on Campus

They should add religion to the Civil Rights Act.

Dave-W · Dec 11, 2019

Sabertooth said:
Wouldn't "Hebrew" be the nationality in question?

Not really. Hebrew is now only a language.

But to Jews, Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity.
A convert upon completion takes on the nationality of Israelite.

Dave-W · Dec 11, 2019

Speedwell said:
Yes there is anti-Semitism, mostly from the Right. The Left is often highly critical of Israel, which is not in itself anti-Semitism.

Not how Jews see it:

FireDragon76 · Dec 11, 2019

Dave-W said:
Not really. Hebrew is now only a language.

But to Jews, Judaism is both a religion and an ethnicity.
A convert upon completion takes on the nationality of Israelite.

Druze think of themselves as a people also, and don't accept converts. But that doesn't mean that it's appropriate to consider them a race or a nation.

Dave-W · Dec 11, 2019

Hazelelponi said:
But Judaism is in fact a religion - not a race.

Judaism is BOTH a religion and an ethnicity. And they are inseparable. Ask any Jewish rabbi that performs conversions, especially in the orthodox and ultra orthodox communities.

FireDragon76 · Dec 11, 2019

Dave-W said:
Judaism is BOTH a religion and an ethnicity. And they are inseparable. Ask any Jewish rabbi that performs conversions, especially in the orthodox and ultra orthodox communities.

Christians call themselves a people too, that doesn't mean they are a nation in the sense we use the term now days in terms of the law.

Rubiks · Dec 11, 2019

Sabertooth said:
Wouldn't "Hebrew" be the nationality in question?

That sounds a little like the state legislatures that tried to declare pi = 22/7 some years back, as an act of law.

I mean, 22/7 is closer to pi than 3.14

Albion · Dec 11, 2019

Dave-W said:
Judaism is BOTH a religion and an ethnicity. And they are inseparable. Ask any Jewish rabbi that performs conversions, especially in the orthodox and ultra orthodox communities.

Even though the policy change we are discussing seems wrong to us, it is hard to imagine that the President has taken this stand carelessly, not just because he has the advisors that any president would have, but because of the connection to Judaism he has from within his own family.

Rubiks · Dec 11, 2019

So far I don't see a problem with this, but am curious to see what Trump will do with it. Hopefully something not bad.

FireDragon76 · Dec 11, 2019

Albion said:
Even though the policy change we are discussing seems wrong to us, it is hard to imagine that the President has taken this stand carelessly, not just because he has the advisors that any president would have, but because of the connection to Judaism he has from within his own family.

That's not a good reason. If anything that just shows the president lacks objectivity.

Albion · Dec 11, 2019

FireDragon76 said:
That's not a good reason. If anything that just shows the president lacks objectivity.

It wasn't a "reason." The suggestion was that this president was better positioned than most to have considered the Jewish understanding of the connection (if any) between race and religion, and that it would be presumptuous of us to think that he didn't avail himself of that source of information.

Arcangl86 · Dec 11, 2019

Rubiks said:
So far I don't see a problem with this, but am curious to see what Trump will do with it. Hopefully something not bad.

It appears this is meant to deal with anti-ISrael and BDS movements and protests on college campuses.

Trump to sign order to combat anti-semitism (not really making Judaism a nationality)

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