Why are so many against reformed Theology…

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BBAS 64

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Good Day, All

This Ligonier conference from 2015 in the QA session, attempts to answer this question.

.. “Once you understand the doctrines of grace, It’s like your breathing heavens air”





In Him,

Bill
 

Bob Carabbio

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Why are so many against reformed Theology…

I'm not "AGAINST" reformed theology, ans much as I simply know that it's "ONLY" theology, and not God's WORD.

It's a "Theological OPINION" based on its own collection of "Proof texts", and "Fleshed out" academically as a "Systematic" presentation.

There's no question BIBLICALLY, that "Salvation" (Becoming Born again) BEGINS with God "moving first" to draw humans to Christ - REINFORCED BY Romans 9, John 6:44.

However "Reformed Theology" essentially ELIMINATES any human responsibility whatsoever. If one is "Elect" (L), then he has no choice BUT to become a Christian (I), and no choice BUT (P) to persevere until death.

Antithetically, if one is NOT Elect", the're nothing but firewood with no choice whatsoever about anything. It's a nice, clean precise systematic with no "hanging ends". You IS, or you Ain't - period.

THOUSANDS of years ago, before creation, my new Great Grand Daughter, My Grand Daughter, my Daughter, and I were arbitrarily (U) labeled "Elect", or "Firewood", and NONE OF US have any say in the matter. Since I'm a Christian, obviously I won an "E", and became Christian. There's no need to pray for any of the others, since their FATE has already been sealed (L).

I don't know, however, how totally inflexible Father actually is -
 
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Hazelelponi

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I'm not "AGAINST" reformed theology, ans much as I simply know that it's "ONLY" theology, and not God's WORD.

It's a "Theological OPINION" based on its own collection of "Proof texts", and "Fleshed out" academically as a "Systematic" presentation.

There's no question BIBLICALLY, that "Salvation" (Becoming Born again) BEGINS with God "moving first" to draw humans to Christ - REINFORCED BY Romans 9, John 6:44.

However "Reformed Theology" essentially ELIMINATES any human responsibility whatsoever. If one is "Elect" (L), then he has no choice BUT to become a Christian (I), and no choice BUT (P) to persevere until death.

Antithetically, if one is NOT Elect", the're nothing but firewood with no choice whatsoever about anything. It's a nice, clean precise systematic with no "hanging ends". You IS, or you Ain't - period.

THOUSANDS of years ago, before creation, my new Great Grand Daughter, My Grand Daughter, my Daughter, and I were arbitrarily (U) labeled "Elect", or "Firewood", and NONE OF US have any say in the matter. Since I'm a Christian, obviously I won an "E", and became Christian. There's no need to pray for any of the others, since their FATE has already been sealed (L).

I don't know, however, how totally inflexible Father actually is -

"Although God controls by divine decree and sovereign power everything that goes on in the world according to His own purposes, that does not remove one iota of culpability from those who do evil. Evildoers do evil not because they are forced to, but by their own evil intent. So God will judge them for both the act and the motive, as well as for their failure to give Him glory and to worship Him."

What Is the Relationship Between Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility?
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Good Day, All

This Ligonier conference from 2015 in the QA session, attempts to answer this question.

.. “Once you understand the doctrines of grace, It’s like your breathing heavens air”





In Him,

Bill
Why?
It changes the character of God.
Be blessed.
 
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Albion

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IMO, Reformed theology irritates people because it doesn't picture God as a being who lets us do whatever WE think best, moral, or whatever. It posits that God is in charge of his own creation (how novel is that?!), which is something that rankles the average person (in just the same way, I suppose, that Adam and Eve reacted to being told that there was even a single tree in the garden that they were not supposed to eat from).
 
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Bob Carabbio

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public hermit

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It doesn't help that the first answer given in the video is "Because they don't know the bible" or that those who reject the Reformed position are "rebelling against the truth." That answer lacks generosity and immediately puts the opposition on the defensive. It's just a bad tactic, and mean spirited. It is in bad form for someone who relies wholly on God's grace to lack generosity in dealing with others. Even when it comes to discussions. At least allow for the possibility that they know the bible and have every intention of not rebelling against the truth.

I think Sproul gets it right when he says many believe Calvinism teaches a corrupt view of God, in that God arbitrarily chooses who is redeemed. I also agree when he says that many have a pagan/humanistic view of free will. The biblical view of human will, in my best estimation, is that we can choose but we are enslaved to sin and can not free ourselves from it on our own.
 
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Albion

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I think Sproul gets it right when he says many believe Calvinism teaches a corrupt view of God, in that God arbitrarily chooses who is redeemed.
In the Reformed view, God does not choose arbitrarily, however.
 
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BBAS 64

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EVERY HUMAN is an "Evil Doer" (T), and ALL Have fallen short of the Glory of God, of whose existence WE ALL KNOW - so we are without excuse. Case closed.

According to "Reformed Theology" it's all been pre-determined, and NOT predicated on our human actions (U). Some will live (L,I,P), and SOME (L - maybe most) will burn, and NOBODY has any choice in the matter.

Simple as that.

Good day, Bob

We can agree that Gods has the choice correct?

He creates those who he will save, and them that he will not correct?
Could he choose not to create "firewood"?

In Him,

Bill
 
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In the Reformed view, God does not choose arbitrarily, however.

I understand, but Sproul was giving reasons for why people reject the Reformed view in that they perceive it in that way.
 
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Bob Carabbio

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Good day, Bob

We can agree that Gods has the choice correct?

Absolutely. He SAYS He's righteous, and perfect, and that settles it.

He creates those who he will save, and them that he will not correct?
Could he choose not to create "firewood"?

Absolutely. The question is - DID He??? And are we (the Firewood, and the Elect) all simply Puppets playing our our predestined roles???

OF course, God is COMPLETELY SOVEREIGN, and as such can do as He pleases. "Shall the thing made say to him that made it: Why hast thou made me thus?"

However there's also the issue of prayer, which supposedly changes things. IF the "Reformed Systematic" is accurate, then it's all pre-determined, and nobody has any choice in the matter whatsoever. THOUSANDS OF YEARS ago I was "elected", and everything after that is simply a result of that decision on God's part.

I THOUGHT that I "Decided to Surrender and Repent", when I was Convicted of SIN and Judgement, but I "really had no choice" the last time (although I had "free will" to refuse the other several times I was Convicted).

And there's no sense in talking to my lost next door neighbor, since if he's Firewood, he can't do anything about it, and if he's "Elect" he'll become a Christian anyway.
 
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Bob Carabbio

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In the Reformed view, God does not choose arbitrarily, however.

SO then the Calvinise "U" is inaccurate. and God's decision to "Elect" an individual is CONDITIONAL on considerations that God foresees.
 
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:oldthumbsup: Indeed they do.

I consider myself Reformed; although, I'm not the five-point Calvinist I used to be. Nonetheless, I owe an eternal debt of gratitude to Sproul for helping bring me to faith. I cut my teeth listening to him and I don't know if I would have come to faith without his emphasis on grace. I grew up in an Arminian tradition and had never heard a Reformed approach until I began listening to him. May he rest in peace and rise in glory.
 
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Albion

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SO then the Calvinise "U" is inaccurate. and God's decision to "Elect" an individual is CONDITIONAL on considerations that God foresees.
Not at all. What the U means is that God's choice is not based upon something "good" or "promising" or anything like that which the person has done or will do.
 
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BBAS 64

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Absolutely. He SAYS He's righteous, and perfect, and that settles it.

Absolutely. The question is - DID He??? And are we (the Firewood, and the Elect) all simply Puppets playing our our predestined roles???

OF course, God is COMPLETELY SOVEREIGN, and as such can do as He pleases. "Shall the thing made say to him that made it: Why hast thou made me thus?"

Good Day, Bob

Yes he did create both, to serve His good pleasure.

However there's also the issue of prayer, which supposedly changes things. IF the "Reformed Systematic" is accurate, then it's all pre-determined, and nobody has any choice in the matter whatsoever. THOUSANDS OF YEARS ago I was "elected", and everything after that is simply a result of that decision on God's part.

I THOUGHT that I "Decided to Surrender and Repent", when I was Convicted of SIN and Judgement, but I "really had no choice" the last time (although I had "free will" to refuse the other several times I was Convicted).

And there's no sense in talking to my lost next door neighbor, since if he's Firewood, he can't do anything about it, and if he's "Elect" he'll become a Christian anyway.

Oh Prayer love that... I suppose we view prayer very differently as I see Prayer as the vehicle used to conform me to God's will (changes me) and not the other way around.

Wait who said nobody had a choice men who love darknesss will always choose darkness and do so freely.

... You may have thought that but upon further examination of the Scriptures both your believing and repenting where not the cause but the effects of God's adoption and granting both repentance and Faith to you... Salvation is all of the Lord.

Sure there is the Gospel is really the power unto Salvation, you pray and preach to your neighbor because God can remove the heart of stone and give the heart of flesh that will cause a man to walk in His statues.

Why do you pray for lost people.. do you not think that God could be doing more to save people?

You may find this useful in filling in some gaps... It is not the whole book. Or maybe Evangelism Explosion by DJames Kennedy.

https://content.wtsbooks.com/shopify/pdf_links/9780830837991-1.pdf

In Him,

Bill
 
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Bob Carabbio

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Not at all. What the U means is that God's choice is not based upon something "good" or "promising" or anything like that which the person has done or will do.

Consequently then, it'a an ARBITRARY decision on God's part to Save this one, and Condemn that one. You can't have it both ways.

So which is it??
 
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Why do you pray for lost people.. do you not think that God could be doing more to save people?

Not if the "Reformed Systematic" is correct. The decision to Save, or Condemn was already set in stone before the creation (supralapsarianism), OR sometime after the fall (infralapsarianism).

What Dr. Kennedy thinks or doesn't think isn't "Gods Word" - just HIS OPINION, so no help there. ALL God's CHilluns Gots "Opinions".
 
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