Constantine created Christianity

mmksparbud · Dec 8, 2019

Daniel Marsh said:
It was a question for SDA to answer, since their posts looks like they are trying to keep the laws given to Israel. I have know some SDA who depend on their keeping the laws for salvation.

There is no SDA that I know of that keep the 10 commandments in order to be saved. We keep them because we are saved, for love of God.

There are only 10--not over 600. The 10 are the only ones written by God on stone and kept in the ark. The ceremonial laws were dictated by God, written by Moses on parchment or skins and kept outside the ark. It does not take a PHD to see that Jesus was the Sacrifice for our sins on the cross and it is now His blood that covers our sins. It is the sacrificial laws that were done away with. A simple reading of the sanctuary service will make that very clear.
God had the 10 He wrote on stone kept in the ark in the Most Holy Place which was a replica of the one in heaven and is His throne of grace. The original is still in the heavenly sanctuary.

Rev_11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Joh_14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Joh_14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Joh_15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

ralliann · Dec 8, 2019

Radagast said:
And after resting, He did something new: God the Son became incarnate as Jesus.

Two names for the same thing.

Could this be an example?
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

ralliann · Dec 8, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Not according to the calendar, nor the bible. There is no 8th day mentioned in the bible.

Do the other Gospels have him appearing on the first day of Week? John would be here saying he appeared again on the first day of the second week? A seven week period and count until Pentecost.
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Radagast · Dec 8, 2019

ralliann said:
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Indeed. The CSB, NIV, and NABRE clarify that this means "a week later," i.e. the following Sunday (using inclusive counting).

mmksparbud · Dec 8, 2019

ralliann said:
Could this be an example?
Joh 20:26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Just means 8 days after the last event---not that there is 8 days of the week!

ralliann · Dec 9, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Just means 8 days after the last event---not that there is 8 days of the week!

Nobody is putting forth there are eight days to a week here, I don't think? What my comment concerned was the count of days and weeks (Heb. Sabbaths) up to Pentecost. The first day of the second week being the eighth day of weeks. John's gospel speaks of Christ appearing on the first days of the weeks perhaps... Sundays.

mmksparbud · Dec 9, 2019

ralliann said:
Nobody is putting forth there are eight days to a week here, I don't think? What my comment concerned was the count of weeks up to Pentecost. The first day of the second week being the eighth day of weeks. John's gospel speaks of Christ appearing on the first days of the weeks perhaps... Sundays.

There are some on here that were in earlier posts and I assumed you were---sorry.

ralliann · Dec 9, 2019

mmksparbud said:
There are some on here that were in earlier posts and I assumed you were---sorry.

Hmm, I did not catch that? Or I did not understand it that way.

ralliann · Dec 9, 2019

Radagast said:
Indeed. The CSB, NIV, and NABRE clarify that this means "a week later," i.e. the following Sunday (using inclusive counting).

Radagast said:
Of course there is; early Christian authors write about it.

The 8th day is of course Sunday, but viewed as the day after the Sabbath.

I wonder if this issue came about because of the sectarian divide between the sadducees, Pharisees, (and essenes). This does involve the various count of the weeks and days until the day of Pentecost. They had divided views concerning the meaning of the phrase "the morrow after the Sabbath" found in Lev 23.

Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
The Pharisees viewed this as a festival Sabbath by date (Nisan 15) in the year, with no regards to the day of the week which it fell.
A fixed feast day.....the count began on the 16th Nisan.

The Sadducees on the other hand took it to mean the first Sabbath day (Saturday) falling in the Passover week.
A movable feast day.....
The count began on the first Sunday falling during the feast of unleavened bread.
The Sadducees and Essenes had the first day of the weeks to begin on Sunday, and each successive week until Pentecost to begin on Sunday as well.

I also wonder if this was not an issue concerning the quartodecimen controversy. And the western Church celebrating his death and resurrection. Each group claimed to be keeping the tradition they had received. Could it be possible that the western Church was keeping one sectarian calender day, and the Asian Another?

prodromos · Dec 9, 2019

mmksparbud said:
There are some on here that were in earlier posts and I assumed you were---sorry.

No one has done so.

ViaCrucis · Dec 9, 2019

mmksparbud said:
There are some on here that were in earlier posts and I assumed you were---sorry.

Nobody has claimed that there are eight days in a week. But that the early Christians understood the day Christ rose as a new day, the eighth day of creation. Not a literal day added to the calendar week, but that God has done something new, a new day has dawned, Christ has risen. The first day of the week is, spiritually, the eighth day--the day of resurrection, the day of new creation, the day of redemption, the Lord's Day.

This is what the early Christians believed.

-CryptoLutheran

Radagast · Dec 9, 2019

ralliann said:
I also wonder if this was not an issue concerning the quartodecimen controversy.

The Quartodeciman issue is something else. Christ was crucified:

On Friday
On 14 Nisan, in the Jewish lunar calendar
On about 25 March, in the solar calendar

But we can't find a day that matches all those at once. What we eventually decided on was essentially to match them in that order. Easter is intended to be the first Sunday after the first full moon of Spring.

Radagast · Dec 9, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
but that God has done something new, a new day has dawned, Christ has risen. The first day of the week is, spiritually, the eighth day--the day of resurrection, the day of new creation, the day of redemption, the Lord's Day.

Amen!

ralliann · Dec 9, 2019

Radagast said:
The Quartodeciman issue is something else. Christ was crucified:

On Friday

On 14 Nisan, in the Jewish lunar calendar

On about 25 March, in the solar calendar

But we can't find a day that matches all those at once. What we eventually decided on was essentially to match them in that order. Easter is intended to be the first Sunday after the first full moon of Spring.

But didn't each claim different traditions they were keeping that was handed down to them?

Radagast · Dec 9, 2019

ralliann said:
But didn't each claim different traditions they were keeping that was handed down to them?

The quartodecimans felt that sticking to 14 Nisan was more important than sticking to the Friday/Saturday/Sunday Easter weekend. The majority of Christians felt the opposite. Everybody agreed that 14 Nisan was indeed the original date on the lunar calendar.

I think that "different traditions" in this context means "different traditional worship practices."

ralliann · Dec 9, 2019

Radagast said:
The quartodecimans felt that sticking to 14 Nisan was more important than sticking to the Friday/Saturday/Sunday Easter weekend. The majority of Christians felt the opposite. Everybody agreed that 14 Nisan was indeed the original date on the lunar calendar.

I think that "different traditions" in this context means "different traditional worship practices."

To be sure this issue is something I am not real familiar with, however, I know it was about when to break a fast, and it might have been about one tradition breaking the fast on Passover as the day the Passover was killed. The other breaking the fast on the day he arose the as firstfruit offering being the first day of 50.
But from reading the historical response....It was about the very DAY they were keeping.

mmksparbud · Dec 9, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
Nobody has claimed that there are eight days in a week. But that the early Christians understood the day Christ rose as a new day, the eighth day of creation. Not a literal day added to the calendar week, but that God has done something new, a new day has dawned, Christ has risen. The first day of the week is, spiritually, the eighth day--the day of resurrection, the day of new creation, the day of redemption, the Lord's Day.

This is what the early Christians believed.

-CryptoLutheran

Sorry---there is no 8th day of creation!! God ceased work on the 7th day. Everything was good and functional and needed nothing. Jesus rose on the 3rd day. He was not a new creation! He always was.

ViaCrucis · Dec 9, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Sorry---there is no 8th day of creation!! God ceased work on the 7th day. Everything was good and functional and needed nothing. Jesus rose on the 3rd day. He was not a new creation! He always was.

I feel like everything is going in one ear and out the other, you're simply not hearing what we're saying.

Have you not heard the Scripture which says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)?

For in Christ there is new creation.

Christ is not created, and nobody said this. But by Christ's resurrection from the dead God has brought salvation, renewal, redemption to the world--God has wrought NEW CREATION through Christ.

Have you also never heard the Scripture which says, "Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him. But Jesus answered them, 'To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.'" (John 5:16-17)?

For God never ceased to be at work. For what He began in the beginning, He has continued to do even until now; that through all which came before there would come the Christ, born of the Seed of David, the Root of Jesse, Jesus our Lord; that He would suffer, die, be buried, and after three days rise from the dead.

This is what we are speaking of, the saving work of God through Jesus Christ, for the world; by which God has brought salvation, redemption, renewal, new creation. This He has done and accomplished. And that all which is found in Christ is new, the old has gone. And so all who are in Christ live in the new day. For, the Prophet Malachi declared,

"But for you who fear My name, the Sun of Justice will rise with healing in His wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall." - Malachi 4:2

See, then, "This is the day that the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it!" (Psalm 118:24)

For, truly, today is the day of rest.

"Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the Gospel failed to enter because of disobedience, again He appoints a certain day, 'Today,' saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, 'Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.' For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fail by the same sort of disobedience." - Hebrews 4:6-11

For all who are in Christ have entered into God's rest, which is today. Today, the new day, the everlasting day; and they are a new creation, the old has gone, the new has come. And all who belong to this day will never face the night, as Christ our God has said,

"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" - John 11:25-26

For there is now no night, but only the radiance of the Day. The Day of God into which we have been born again, received this new life from Him, by grace, in Christ, by the power of the Spirit--to the life that shall never end, and the ceaseless and wonderful day of God.

"And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in the dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." - 2 Peter 1:19

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.'

And he who was seated on the throne said, 'Behold, I am making all things new.' Also he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.' And he said to me, 'It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.'" - Revelation 21:1-7

"Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written, 'Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.' Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise." - Galatians 4:25-28

-CryptoLutheran

mmksparbud · Dec 9, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
I feel like everything is going in one ear and out the other, you're simply not hearing what we're saying.

Have you not heard the Scripture which says, "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come." (2 Corinthians 5:17)?

For in Christ there is new creation.

Christ is not created, and nobody said this. But by Christ's resurrection from the dead God has brought salvation, renewal, redemption to the world--God has wrought NEW CREATION through Christ.

Have you also never heard the Scripture which says, "Now because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews began to persecute Him. But Jesus answered them, 'To this very day My Father is at His work, and I too am working.'" (John 5:16-17)?

For God never ceased to be at work. For what He began in the beginning, He has continued to do even until now; that through all which came before there would come the Christ, born of the Seed of David, the Root of Jesse, Jesus our Lord; that He would suffer, die, be buried, and after three days rise from the dead.

This is what we are speaking of, the saving work of God through Jesus Christ, for the world; by which God has brought salvation, redemption, renewal, new creation. This He has done and accomplished. And that all which is found in Christ is new, the old has gone. And so all who are in Christ live in the new day. For, the Prophet Malachi declared,

"But for you who fear My name, the Sun of Justice will rise with healing in His wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall." - Malachi 4:2

See, then, "This is the day that the Lord has made; let us rejoice and be glad in it!" (Psalm 118:24)

For, truly, today is the day of rest.

"Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the Gospel failed to enter because of disobedience, again He appoints a certain day, 'Today,' saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted, 'Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your hearts.' For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fail by the same sort of disobedience." - Hebrews 4:6-11

For all who are in Christ have entered into God's rest, which is today. Today, the new day, the everlasting day; and they are a new creation, the old has gone, the new has come. And all who belong to this day will never face the night, as Christ our God has said,

"I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?" - John 11:25-26

For there is now no night, but only the radiance of the Day. The Day of God into which we have been born again, received this new life from Him, by grace, in Christ, by the power of the Spirit--to the life that shall never end, and the ceaseless and wonderful day of God.

"And we have the prophetic word more fully confirmed, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in the dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." - 2 Peter 1:19

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.'

And he who was seated on the throne said, 'Behold, I am making all things new.' Also he said, 'Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.' And he said to me, 'It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.'" - Revelation 21:1-7

"Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written, 'Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.' Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise." - Galatians 4:25-28

-CryptoLutheran

No, I understand what you are saying very well---I just don't like that interpretation. It sounds contrary to what God has said, I do not like the wording. Yes---Jesus makes all things new---that is not adding on another day to creation itself---it is a new one. It is an irksome thing to me to hear that 8th day. If God wanted to say it that way---He would have. Just one of my little quirks.

ViaCrucis · Dec 9, 2019

mmksparbud said:
No, I understand what you are saying very well---I just don't like that interpretation. It sounds contrary to what God has said, I do not like the wording. Yes---Jesus makes all things new---that is not adding on another day to creation itself---it is a new one. It is an irksome thing to me to hear that 8th day. If God wanted to say it that way---He would have. Just one of my little quirks.

And yet, this is what Christians from the beginning have believed.

That none of the canonical books of the Bible explicitly use this phrase, "the eighth day" does not negate the meaning and significance of what it refers to. In the same way that we may not find "the Holy Bible" or "the Canon of Scripture" or "the Trinity" et al does not negate the truthfulness of what is being spoken of.

Taking what is said in Scripture, in the whole, this is what the earliest Christians believed and understood. And we know that, because that's what they themselves said.

"Furthermore He says to them, 'Your new moons and sabbaths I cannot away with.' Do you see what He means? The present sabbaths are not acceptable to Me, but that which I have made, in which I will give rest to all things and make the beginning of an eighth day, that is, the beginning of another world. Wherefore we also celebrate with gladness the eighth day in which Jesus also rose from the dead, and was made manifest, and ascended into heaven." - Epistle of Barnabas 15:8-9, c. 70-120 AD

"Justin: Now, sirs, it is possible for us to show how the eighth day possessed a certain mysterious import, which the seventh day did not possess, and which was promulgated by God through these rites [i.e. circumcision, ritual cleansing, et al]. But lest I appear now to diverge to other subjects, understand what I say: the blood of that circumcision is obsolete, and we trust in the blood of salvation; there is now another covenant, and another law has gone forth from Zion. Jesus Christ circumcises all who will--as was declared above--with kives of stone; that they may be a righteous nation, a people keeping faith, holding to the truth, and maintaining peace. Come then with me, all who fear God, who wish to see the good of Jerusalem. Come let us go to the light of the Lord, for He has liberated His people, the house of Jacob. Come, all nations; let us gather ourselves at Jerusalem, no longer plagued by war for the sins of her people. 'For I was manifest to them that sought Me not; I was found of them that asked not for Me,' He exclaims by Isaiah: 'I said, Behold Me, unto nations which were not called by My name. I have spread out My hands all the day unto a disobedient and gainsaying people, which walked in a way that was not good, but after their own sins. It is a people that provoked Me to My face.'" - St. Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, ch. 24, c. 150 AD

"For in respect of the observance of the eighth day in the Jewish circumcision of the flesh, a sacrament was given beforehand in shadow and in usage; but when Christ came, it was fulfilled in truth. For because the eighth day, that is, the first day after the Sabbath, was to be that on which the Lord should rise again, and should quicken us, and give us circumcision of the spirit, the eighth day, that is, the day after the Sabbath, and the Lord's day, went before in the figure; which figure ceased when by and by the truth came, and spiritual circumcision was given to us." - St. Cyprian of Carthage, Epistle 58, ch. 4, c. ~230-250 AD

"Before the arrival of the eighth day of the Lord Jesus Christ the whole world was pure and uncircumcised. But when the eighth day of the resurrection came, immediately we were cleansed, buried, and raised by the circumcision of Christ." - Origen of Alexandria, On the Psalms, c. 250 AD

As you can see, they did not pull the idea of the "eighth day" from thin air. It is built upon the Scriptures; for they understood that God had used the eighth day in the past to signify important things. This is why God instructed the Israelites to circumcise on the eighth day, this is why they were to cleanse themselves on the eighth day. And it is in this type of the eighth day, which the Apostles themselves draw from, as St. Paul does to speak of Baptism as our true circumcision "made without hands", and our purification from sins in Christ. That it is the eighth day in which newness and beginnings are found. It is the day of new identity and new life--having been made purified and a new creation in the death and resurrection of Christ.

This is why it is the eighth day. It is biblical.

-CryptoLutheran

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