Where Arminianism Fails.

fhansen said:

Yes, for what its worth the historical view on this is that the HS works within man to move him towards God, towards conversion, accepting God's offer, trusting in Christ at which time we're justified. We cannot do that on our own. And yet the indwelling does not occur until we do accept, until we agree to cohabit with God ourselves. We can't say "yes" without grace, but we can still say "no" to it -at any time.

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The Biblical view supports that synergy as well.


So we see from both verses that heaven (The Spirit Himself) and earth (our spirit) bare witness (testifies) about the choice we make for salvation.

-57 said:

One point was on OSAS...I use to be a Heb 6 guy. Then I thought about it...we are saved by grace. Not works. But then I understood if we are saved by grace then our works don't hold us in salvation. Once I learned nothing can snatch you from the Fathers hand or Jesus' hand along with nothing can separate you from the love of God....plus more points not mentioned I understood I was secure in my salvation.
Is this a license to sin? Absolutly not.

At one point I was struggling with some of the concepts of soteriology. It was explained to me in an analogy... we were like a person drowning in a lake. Going under for the last time. All we had to do is reach out and grab the life preserver and we could be saved. Then I learned another analogy. Eph 2 tells us we were dead in our sins and trespasses...in other words, laying on the bottom of the lake. Dead. God then dived in and dragged me from the bottom of the lake and regenerated me. I had nothing to do with my salvation as I was spiritually dead.

At this point I had never heard of or even studied TULIP.

As time went on I began to understand if we choose to accept or reject Jesus as our Lord and Savior then that choice pretty much is based upon life experience, what I call happenstance....events out of our control...For all people those events are different. Perhaps a young child learned about Jesus in Sunday school and at a later date because of that early learnings "accepted" Jesus....while the same person in a different scenario may have been raised in an atheistic culture and when presented with Jesus, rejected Jesus. Same guy, different happenstance, different out comes. I don't think happenstance, life's events that may by chance have gone this way or that way is part of the salvation equation.

There's much more and I could expand on each of the points above...but I gave you the nutshell version.

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Thanks for sharing! It's sometimes strange how the same story leads to different conclusions.

An old friend of mine felt the fact that an unbeliever can be saved by our prayer to God is a proof we don't have free will. My understaning was the opposite, that the fact that we can choose to pray or not to pray for an unbeliever is the proof of free will.

fhansen said:

Any who've heard and understood the message and rejected it-either at the beginning or later on in their walk.
"Nevertheless, many of the leaders believed in Him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue. For they loved praise from men more than praise from God." John 12

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Fail. The gospels (all of them) tell us Jesus' audience was "ever seeing but never perceiving" and "ever hearing but never understanding" as a matter of prophetic fulfillment "lest the repent and be healed." In other words, this was a group of people God actively prevented from seeing, hearing, perceiving, and understanding expressly because of their hardness specifically so they would not repent.

You've proof-texted a verse and done exactly what I said Arms do.

fhansen said:

"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— and then have fallen away—to be restored again to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame." Heb 6

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Another fail. These are not people who were not-yet saved and not yet without the Holy Spirit. This text explicitly states they had "shared in the Holy Spirit." This is not the non-believer who has been put in a position of believing before receiving the Holy Spirit.

You've once again proof-texted a single verse and failed to consider its inherent contexts.... as I stated Arms do....

AND.... you've also attempted to apply to sinfully dead and enslaved non-believers something explicitly stated applicable only to believers who have already 1) "shared in the Holy Spirit." 2) "tasted the goodness of the word of God," and 3) "tasted the powers of the coming age." They can't "fall away" if they weren't saved first.

Uber-Fail.

fhansen said:

There may be millions of them.

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That is not an answer to the question asked. All you've done is attempt to turn my point around on me by way of really, really, really bad eisegesis masquerading as sound exegesis followed by a speculative statement, "There may be millions of them."

Where are they?

Where are these people reporting to have tasted the heavenly gift and been made partakers of the Holy Spirit? Where is the testimony of these millions of people reporting to have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come only to walk away before being saved?

The point made, the question asked was not addressed.


Go back and re-read this op and consider it applied to the aborigine of Australia, the early Inuit of North America, or the tribesman of Congolese Africa who has never heard of the gospel nor God and has no idea what you're talking about when you say the word, "God." Try applying it to the antitheist, not just the atheist who has heard of the gospel and heard about God but actively, proactively vehemently denies His existence. Stop trying to apply scriptures about people who already believed in God! It is a false equivalency. You cannot use the gospel texts. You cannot use 98% of the epistolary.

And if you try to do so again I will again point out the abuse of scripture inherent in the neglect of audience affiliation and the other contexts.

Gup20 said:

The Biblical view supports that synergy as well.

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No, it does not.

Gup20 said:

[Deu 30:19 NASB] 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,

[Rom 8:15-17 NASB] 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with [Him] so that we may also be glorified with [Him.]​

So we see from both verses that heaven (The Spirit Himself) and earth (our spirit) bare witness (testifies) about the choice we make for salvation.

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No, what we see is that heaven and earth bares witness to the choices made by people already living within a covenant relationship with God. You still have yet to find a single scripture about the atheist who denies God or anything the Bible says about that guy's volitional agency. Until you do so you are borrowing scriptural and intellectual capital from God and His word about His people.

Bad exegesis leads to bad doctrine and subsequently to bad posts.


Furthermore, the Deuteronomy text is explicitly about a group of people who weren't asked anything until after they'd entered the promised land. It is not an Arminian pre-salvation scenario. It is a God-initiated-without-asking, post-Covenant, already-living-in-the-promised-land scenario.

You've just argued a Calvinist pov.

zoidar said:

Thanks for sharing! It's sometimes strange how the same story leads to different conclusions.

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When Yahuweh Sovereign Creator Reveals Salvation and Everything Concerning Salvation to Anyone, it is completely in perfect Harmony - no contradictions. No conclusions to reach or strive for - just BELIEVE WHAT HE REVEALS! (Clearly!)

-57 said:

I've been trying to get an Arminian to address the issue why one would choose to believe an another not choose to believe.
What is their decision based upon?

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Since I'm not a "5-point Calvinist", then automatically "to them" I'm an "Arminian" (whatever that means). In reality, I'm a "Non-systematic Calvinist leaning Eclectic".

Obviously "Belief" (Intellectual assent) isn't of any particular importance, and also automatic - If you're HUMAN, then the Knowledge of God at the deepest intellectual level is built-in (the cosmological argument is presented) - so Humans are Without excuse.

The entire Salvation process BEGINS with God "showing Mercy" (Rom 9), and DRAWING (John 6:44) a person to Christ.

The "Drawing" (which may take place over DECADES, and involve all sorts of good and horrendous experiences). Then when God finally does hit the person with "Conviction of SIN and of Judgement" - THEN COMES the "Free will decision" - to surrender, repent, and call out to God for salvation - OR to RUN AWAY back into death!! the Conviction will fade, and the person remains lost. But sometimes (maybe always) God will hit the person with Conviction again. I ran away several times - until the last time. I might have run away that time also - IF I KNEW FOR SURE that He'd convict me of SIN again (which is the only time you can repent and become Born Again).

zoidar said:

Thanks for sharing! It's sometimes strange how the same story leads to different conclusions.

An old friend of mine felt the fact that an unbeliever can be saved by our prayer to God is a proof we don't have free will. My understaning was the opposite, that the fact that we can choose to pray or not to pray for an unbeliever is the proof of free will.

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It's also possible the prayer to God for ones salvation was part of Gods pre-ordained salvation plan for that person.

Bob Carabbio said:

Since I'm not a "5-point Calvinist", then automatically "to them" I'm an "Arminian" (whatever that means). In reality, I'm a "Non-systematic Calvinist leaning Eclectic".

Obviously "Belief" (Intellectual assent) isn't of any particular importance, and also automatic - If you're HUMAN, then the Knowledge of God at the deepest intellectual level is built-in (the cosmological argument is presented) - so Humans are Without excuse.

The entire Salvation process BEGINS with God "showing Mercy" (Rom 9), and DRAWING (John 6:44) a person to Christ.

The "Drawing" (which may take place over DECADES, and involve all sorts of good and horrendous experiences). Then when God finally does hit the person with "Conviction of SIN and of Judgement" - THEN COMES the "Free will decision" - to surrender, repent, and call out to God for salvation - OR to RUN AWAY back into death!! the Conviction will fade, and the person remains lost. But sometimes (maybe always) God will hit the person with Conviction again. I ran away several times - until the last time. I might have run away that time also - IF I KNEW FOR SURE that He'd convict me of SIN again (which is the only time you can repent and become Born Again).

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The way God saves a person is different for everyone.

Josheb said:

No, it does not.

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This is the easiest argument in the world to refute. Watch:

Yes. It does. #BOOM #ArgumentRefuted #WonTheArgument

You can tell my argument defeated yours, although it had the same level of evidence as your argument, it was the opposite of what you said, but it was in bold text (and thus carried more weight), and I actually claimed victory which you just implied. I also get special bonus for using hashtags that could trend on social media. You'll need to up your game next time bro and extend your argument to include actual evidence.

No, what we see is that heaven and earth bares witness to the choices made by people already living within a covenant relationship with God. You still have yet to find a single scripture about the atheist who denies God or anything the Bible says about that guy's volitional agency. Until you do so you are borrowing scriptural and intellectual capital from God and His word about His people.

Bad exegesis leads to bad doctrine and subsequently to bad posts.

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This is what is called a strawman argument.

You have assumed as true that which you seek to prove and used that assumption as your basis for proof. But, even if I accepted your premise (I do not), you could be proven wrong.


Adam, in an uncovenanted and fallen state, KNEW what was good, not just what was evil. The OP of this thread assumes man doesn't know good, or it is not near to him... that man must first be regenerated to know good.


Here we see the unsaved and uncovenanted Gentiles who do not even have the covenant of the law yet having God's good law written on their hearts so that their own conscience can accuse OR DEFEND them -- meaning they are capable of good in spite of being out of covenant with God. This make sense with Genesis 3 in that even fallen man knows of good. It's devastating to Calvinism to admit that depravity isn't absolute in totality.

I've seen several of your posts josheb, and one thing you do often is talk "about" scripture and what it supposedly says, yet you never quote scripture, nor show where it says what you claim it says. In fact, you often say "the whole bible says" or "all of the new testament says" yet you are unable to provide a single verse for discussion. I must conclude you have nothing you can present to corroborate your claims.

Your esigesis seems not based on Scripture at all, but upon extra-biblical human commentary of scripture and thus far I've seen no reason to be convinced of your arguments.

Gup20 said:

This is the easiest argument in the world to refute. Watch:

Yes. It does. #BOOM #ArgumentRefuted #WonTheArgument

You can tell my argument defeated yours, although it had the same level of evidence as your argument, it was the opposite of what you said, but it was in bold text (and thus carried more weight), and I actually claimed victory which you just implied. I also get special bonus for using hashtags that could trend on social media. You'll need to up your game next time bro and extend your argument to include actual evidence.

This is what is called a strawman argument.

You have assumed as true that which you seek to prove and used that assumption as your basis for proof. But, even if I accepted your premise (I do not), you could be proven wrong.

[Gen 3:22 NASB] 22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--​

Adam, in an uncovenanted and fallen state, KNEW what was good, not just what was evil. The OP of this thread assumes man doesn't know good, or it is not near to him... that man must first be regenerated to know good.

[Rom 2:14-15 NASB] 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,​

Here we see the unsaved and uncovenanted Gentiles who do not even have the covenant of the law yet having God's good law written on their hearts so that their own conscience can accuse OR DEFEND them -- meaning they are capable of good in spite of being out of covenant with God. This make sense with Genesis 3 in that even fallen man knows of good. It's devastating to Calvinism to admit that depravity isn't absolute in totality.

I've seen several of your posts josheb, and one thing you do often is talk "about" scripture and what it supposedly says, yet you never quote scripture, nor show where it says what you claim it says. In fact, you often say "the whole bible says" or "all of the new testament says" yet you are unable to provide a single verse for discussion. I must conclude you have nothing you can present to corroborate your claims.

Your esigesis seems not based on Scripture at all, but upon extra-biblical human commentary of scripture and thus far I've seen no reason to be convinced of your arguments.

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If every man know this good you're speaking of....then why doesn't every man accept Jesus?

-57 said:

It's also possible the prayer to God for ones salvation was part of Gods pre-ordained salvation plan for that person.

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Yes, some believe this to be the case...

-57 said:

If every man know this good you're speaking of....then why doesn't every man accept Jesus?

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Because of sin and death, they are enslaved to fear. Fear drives the sin nature.


Adam was created perfect without a sin nature. He had a divine nature, yet was capable of sinning. We, though in our fallen state have a sinful nature, are capable of good because we know good and evil and have God's good law on our hearts in spite of our eternal destination and dominant nature.


The OP makes a claim anti-thetical to Deuteronomy 30. He says it is too difficult for you to make the choice for life and blessing... and that you must go & have the help of heaven to hear it.

What does Paul say about Deuteronomy 30?


This is diametrically opposed to the OP. He would have us believe that the word is not near to us or in our heart, but rather that we must first regenerate (or ascend into heaven to bring God as the Holy Spirit down to make us hear) to choose life.

Josheb said:

Yes, it is God's work, not it is not Classical Arminianism and I have already explained how. You've just repeated the exact argument I corrected: redefining faith so it isn't a work; it's just a thing that isn't a work, it's a relationship

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If faith is a work, Paul was one messed up dude and we might as well do away with Galatians.

-57 said:

If every man know this good you're speaking of....then why doesn't every man accept Jesus?

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Because there is a real spiritual war going on, and people fall for Satan's distractions.

Gup20 said:

Because of sin and death, they are enslaved to fear. Fear drives the sin nature.

[Jhn 8:34 NASB] 34 Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.

[Heb 2:14-16 NASB] 14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham.

[Jhn 3:19 NASB] 19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

[1Jo 4:18 NASB] 18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.​

Adam was created perfect without a sin nature. He had a divine nature, yet was capable of sinning. We, though in our fallen state have a sinful nature, are capable of good because we know good and evil and have God's good law on our hearts in spite of our eternal destination and dominant nature.

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

The OP makes a claim anti-thetical to Deuteronomy 30. He says it is too difficult for you to make the choice for life and blessing... and that you must go & have the help of heaven to hear it.

What does Paul say about Deuteronomy 30?

[Rom 10:5-10 NASB] 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

This is diametrically opposed to the OP. He would have us believe that the word is not near to us or in our heart, but rather that we must first regenerate (or ascend into heaven to bring God as the Holy Spirit down to make us hear) to choose life.

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"Good" can be done for several reasons. One way of doing good is for personal gain. Another way to do good is for Godly reasons. The unregenerated person can't do good for Godly intentions.

renniks said:

Because there is a real spiritual war going on, and people fall for Satan's distractions.

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Even Paul says he doesnt' do the good he wants to do, and does do the evil he doesn't want to do... but Romans 7 is all about accepting that our identity is not in our sin nature, but in the co-existing divine nature.


So we see that death (the death that resulted from The Curse) is what enslaves Paul to his sin nature. As a believer and born again christian, he now has 2 natures, and the one whom he thinks is his true self... the one he sets him mind on and finds his identity in wins.

renniks said:

Because there is a real spiritual war going on, and people fall for Satan's distractions.

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I don't disagree....but I don't think Satan has the ability to keep someone from being regenerated by God.

-57 said:

"Good" can be done for several reasons. One way of doing good is for personal gain. Another way to do good is for Godly reasons. The unregenerated person can't do good for Godly intentions.

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Yet in what case would God's good law on their conscience defend them? For doing good for selfish reasons?

Gup20 said:

Yet in what case would God's good law on their conscience defend them? For doing good for selfish reasons?

[Rom 2:14-15 NASB] 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,​

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Is the law condemning them?