Is Calvinism Just?

redleghunter said:

Calvin actually opined that our belief, endurance and obedience is by the Grace of God. Such proves the fruits of a new creation in Christ Jesus. And this is true as:

Ephesians 2: NASB

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

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You are adding to that verse brother. The words believing, endurance, and obedience are not in that verse. You are assuming that these are the works of God but these works are synergetic. God enables us by His calling thru the gospel and we must choose either to accept it or reject it. If it were not for God’s work in the gospel we would have no chance for salvation. The words we are His workmanship simply means we are His creation. He created us.

Albion said:

He is teaching that the Election is not based upon the person's future works, etc. That is not to say that the person, thus chosen, will not perform as a follower of Jesus Christ ought.

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Where does it say that ELECTION is not based upon our future works, etc? Are we not judged according to our deeds? I assume you will quote Romans 9 but be forewarned that Romans 9 is about God’s calling not election to salvation. There is a difference “for many are called but few are chosen”. What was Jesus’ message when He said that?

redleghunter said:

You keep shifting the conversation. Romans 9 indeed addresses God choosing and addresses calling and quite a few more themes.

Romans 9: NASB

6But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.” 8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.9For this is the word of promise: “AT THIS TIME I WILL COME, AND SARAH SHALL HAVE A SON.” 10And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12it was said to her, “THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER.” 13Just as it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

14What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH.”18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it?21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.

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What is “it” in verse 16? What does “it” refer to? I’ll give you a hint, you’ll find the answer in these verses later in chapter 9.

“even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ' MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ' BELOVED.'" " AND IT SHALL BE THAT IN THE PLACE WHERE IT WAS SAID TO THEM, ' YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE,' THERE THEY SHALL BE CALLED SONS OF THE LIVING GOD."

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:24-26, 30-32‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“It” (God’s calling) does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs but on God who has mercy. The Gentiles surely were not willing or running to please God and yet God bestowed mercy upon them. Even still not all Gentiles will be saved hence this is God’s calling not election. “Many are called few are chosen”. Why was the man not chosen in this message Jesus gave?

Albion said:

Where does it say that it is?

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Right here in Romans 2.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-16‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Radagast said:

Well, it wasn't invented by Calvin. Augustine said it before him, and Paul before Augustine. The "5 points of Calvinism" don't even come from Calvin's writings

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Augustine openly admitted to making many errors in his early writings and that his beliefs had changed as he grew in wisdom of God’s word. The problem is he didn’t explain exactly what these errors were.

And yet, I would not want anyone to embrace all my views in order to be my follower, but only those points on which he sees that I am not mistaken. […] I have not always held the same views, rather, I think that, as I wrote, I made progress by the mercy of God, but not that I have started off with perfection. […] We can, of course, have good hope for someone if the last day of this life finds him making progress.” (On the Gift of Perseverance, XXI, 55)

Iranaeus refuted Calvin’s theology in his writing titled Adversus Haereses written in 170AD.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to persons who oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all good things, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

Notice how befitting God’s punishment is according to the offense. Those who desire darkness over the light are sent to darkness where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth. Kind of brings a whole new meaning to the term “be careful what you wish for, you just might get it”.

You asked “By what standards would you tell God that He wasn't just?”

Well in reality I would never tell God that He isn’t just because He is just. That’s the whole point of this thread, that God is just and in His being just He cannot punish man for failing to meet impossible expectations. It is Calvin’s theology that teaches that God’s expectations are impossible for the unelected to meet. But since we’re on the subject I would add that the unjustness of God’s judgement on the unelected according to Calvin’s theology is unjust because of God’s own standards.

Psalm 9:8 He will judge the world with justice and rule the nations with fairness.

Job 8:3 Does God twist justice? Does the Almighty twist what is right?

Acts 10:34-35 Then Peter replied, “I see very clearly that God shows no favoritism. In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right.

James 2:1-4 My brothers and sisters, believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ must not show favoritism. Suppose a man comes into your meeting wearing a gold ring and fine clothes, and a poor man in filthy old clothes also comes in. If you show special attention to the man wearing fine clothes and say, “Here’s a good seat for you,” but say to the poor man, “You stand there” or “Sit on the floor by my feet,” have you not discriminated among yourselves and become judges with evil thoughts?

Leviticus 19:15 Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly.

Proverbs 31:9 Speak up and judge fairly; defend the rights of the poor and needy.

Colossians 3:24-25 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. Anyone who does wrong will be repaid for their wrongs, and there is no favoritism.

Romans‬ ‭2:9-12‬ ‭There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;”
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I am confident that we would agree that God is not a hypocrite. So the standards He has expected of us He would also adhere to Himself. Jesus surely lived His life here on earth as an example of how we are to live our life. He led by example. The scriptures also repeatedly remind us that God does not show partiality towards some while forsaking others. He is no respecter of men. Calvin’s interpretation of God’s election teaches that God is showing partiality towards some and not towards others while all are equally guilty of transgression against Him.

You claim that Paul taught unconditional election but that is not true. Consider what Paul said in Romans 2.

I apologize in advance for the portion in all CAP letters, my Bible app automatically puts all OT references in the NT in all cap letters.

“But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

I want to interject here to point out that this highlighted portion is a mirror verse of Romans 9:22. So we need to consider the implications of what it means that God is being kind, tolerant, and patient with us, and not just towards His elect but also towards the vessels of wrath. Is God being kind and patient towards the unelected by not allowing them to even be capable of repentance and believing? Paul says right here that God’s kindness leads us to repentance. I’ll come back to this after the next few verses.

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:3-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice Paul says that we are storing up the wrath of God’s righteous judgement because of our stubbornness and unrepentant heart. There is a big difference between stubbornness or unwillingness and incapability. In order for someone to refuse to do something out of stubbornness they must first be capable of doing what is expected. If they are incapable of meeting the expectations then their failure to comply is the result of inability not unwillingness or stubbornness. But as I pointed out according to the previous verse God’s kindness (His calling) leads them to repentance making them capable of repentance. That is why they are righteously judged for their stubbornness because God has enabled the unelected to repent and they have chosen of their own accord to reject His offer of grace. Hence the term “Many are called but few are chosen”. What was Jesus’ message right before He said these words?

-57 said:

The wages of sin is death.

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Everyone has sinned let’s just make this point very clear. Our condemnation is not the result of sin but because of unwillingness to repent.

But do you suppose this, O man, when you pass judgment on those who practice such things and do the same yourself, that you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

I want to interject here to point out that this highlighted portion is a mirror verse of Romans 9:22. So we need to consider the implications of what it means that God is being kind, tolerant, and patient with us, and not just towards His elect but also towards the vessels of wrath. Is God being kind and patient towards the unelected by not allowing them to even be capable of repentance and believing? Paul says right here that God’s kindness leads us to repentance. I’ll come back to this after the next few verses.

But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:3-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Notice Paul says that we are storing up the wrath of God’s righteous judgement because of our stubbornness and unrepentant heart. There is a big difference between stubbornness or unwillingness and incapability. In order for someone to refuse to do something out of stubbornness they must first be capable of doing what is expected. If they are incapable of meeting the expectations then their failure to comply is the result of inability not unwillingness or stubbornness. But as I pointed out according to the previous verse God’s kindness (His calling) leads them to repentance making them capable of repentance. That is why they are righteously judged for their stubbornness because God has enabled the unelected to repent and they have chosen of their own accord to reject His offer of grace. Hence the term “Many are called but few are chosen”. What was Jesus’ message right before He said these words?