Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

mkgal1 · Dec 8, 2019

thomas_t said:
within the kingdom of God, these barriers are torn down, yeah.
But so long as a common Israeli does not believe the Gospel, being outside the kingdom is a matter of fact.

I'm not referring to geopolitical Israel. In my belief - that has zero to do with what I'm discussing.

Your version of Replacement Theology - in my opinion - is most egregious, as it takes the title of Israel from biblical Israel and hands it to a modern secular political movement that has nothing to do with the narrative of Christ.

keras · Dec 8, 2019

mkgal1 said:
I'm not referring to geopolitical Israel. In my belief - that has zero to do with what I'm discussing.

This is right; the Jewish State of Israel is just another nation of the world. Like all the rest it is made up from peoples of many ethnicities. They stand out because they have a democratic government; surrounded as they are by autocratic and despotic rulers.
Basically Israel is a godless and faithless entity, that relies on its own strength for survival. God has allowed their 'budding and success', Matthew 24:32-33, for His own reasons.
But all the prophets tell us how their Judgment is coming and only a remnant will survive. Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, Isaiah 22:14, +

The common belief of their redemption as a nation, is a fable, a theory as part of the 'rapture to heaven' fable.
God's Chosen people now, are only those who believe in Him and who have accepted Jesus as their Saviour. John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9

thomas_t · Dec 8, 2019

keras said:
God's Chosen people now,

Hi Keras,
again, Christian were never called "people" in the Bible... if I remember right. They are the vine.

As you know, Romans 11:26 teaches what you call "fable": the redemption of all Israel.
But don't get me wrong: we often agree - for instance when it comes to the question whether or not we should take other prophecies literally; those prophecies that can be taken literally. There we agree, we often agree,
regards,
Thomas

keras · Dec 8, 2019

thomas_t said:
Hi Keras,
again, Christian were never called "people" in the Bible... if I remember right. They are the vine.

As you know, Romans 11:26 teaches what you call "fable": the redemption of all Israel.
But don't get me wrong: we often agree - for instance when it comes to the question whether or not we should take other prophecies literally; those prophecies that can be taken literally. There we agree, we often agree,
regards,
Thomas

Thank you Thomas, your attitude has improved.

In Romans 11, Paul tells us how original Israel has been cut off the Olive Tree, which refers to Jesus. It is only possible for them to be grafted back into Salvation thru conversion to Christianity.
The Divine secret that Paul mentions in v.25, refers to the 10 Northern tribes of Israel, the people that Jesus came to save, Matthew 15:24
THEY are the true Israel, but considered to be Gentiles by the Jews.

I find the prophesy in Ezekiel 11:14-21 very informative on this issue.

thomas_t · Dec 8, 2019

Look Keras,
I made a mistake.
Christians ARE called his people. 1 Peter 2:9
So I was wrong, I posted too quickly, because I've had some stress.

keras said:
THEY are the true Israel, but considered to be Gentiles by the Jews.

In my opinion, throughout Romans, Israel is the 12 tribes, and Jesus also came for the 12 tribes. Why would he miss out the 2 tribes. Mary, for instance, was from the Judah tribe, Jesus also came to save her.

mkgal1 · Dec 8, 2019

John Hagee uses the term "replacement theology" to label those who fail to give unconditional support to the modern secular geopolitical Israel - but ISTM that his belief framework is actually placing that modern secular geopolitical nation where Christ ought to be. IOW - Hagee is doing the replacing.

Hagee often cites Isaiah 49:6 ....interpreting that passage to inform us that "Israel is a light unto the nations".....yet, I believe, Hagee is assigning that title ("light to the Gentiles/the nations") to the wrong entity entirely. It's my belief that *Christ* is the "light unto the nations" - not modern-day Israel. ISTM this is a great example of idolatry. Isaiah's prophecy (and all the Law and the words of the prophets, really) is pointing to Christ Jesus. To strip that away and give that title to a secular geopolitical nation is completely missing the plot of the narrative (IMO). It's "replacement theology" of the worst kind - it's replacing Jesus with a modern secular geopolitical nation.

Isaiah 49:3-6 ~ “And He said to me, ‘You are My servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’ Then I said, ‘I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and in vain; Yet surely my just reward is with the Lord, and my work with my God.’ And now the Lord says, Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel is gathered to Him (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and My God shall be My strength), indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth"

Galatians 3:7-8 ~ “Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’”

I found this to be an informative documentary
------->

mkgal1 · Dec 8, 2019

Another Hagee quote (quoting from Jews for Jesus):

Pro-Israel Jewish supporter Rev. John Hagee argues that Jesus is the savior of the Gentiles, but He is not (at least was not in the first century) the Jewish Messiah:

"There is not one verse of Scripture in the New Testament that says Jesus came to be the Messiah . . . And if Jesus refused by his words or actions to claim the be the Messiah to the Jews, then how can the Jews be blamed for rejecting what was never offered?" ~ John Hagee, In Defense of Israel, First Ed. (Lake Mary, FL: FrontLine, 2007), 136 ~ Messianic Prophecy • Jews for Jesus

John Hagee denies Jesus claimed to be the Messiah | CARM.org

keras · Dec 8, 2019

thomas_t said:
Look Keras,
I made a mistake.
Christians ARE called his people. 1 Peter 2:9
So I was wrong, I posted too quickly, because I've had some stress.

In my opinion, throughout Romans, Israel is the 12 tribes, and Jesus also came for the 12 tribes. Why would he miss out the 2 tribes. Mary, for instance, was from the Judah tribe, Jesus also came to save her.

Thanks Thomas.
It's quite simple really; We Christians are the Chosen people, John 15:14-16, 1 Peter 2:9, and there is only One people of God; John 17:20-23, Ephesians 4:4-6,

We know that the two kingdoms of Israel- the 10 Northern Tribes and of Judah- the two Southern tribes, were separated soon after Solomon reigned. The House of Israel remains scattered among the nations until now.
The great prophecy of their rejoining in Ezekiel 37 has not yet taken place; the Blessings promised have not been received yet.
Soon will happen; the reset of our civilization, to a similar extent as what happened in Noahs time. It will be by fire this time and there will be many survivors.
THEN, the great joining of the remnant of Judah and all the faithful Christians will take place and we will all come together in the holy Land, as Jeremiah 50:4-5, Isaiah 62:1-5 and many other prophesies tell us.

thomas_t · Dec 9, 2019

Hi Gal,
Christ is the light now, we agree.

mkgal1 said:
John Hagee uses the term "replacement theology" to label those who fail to give unconditional support to the modern secular geopolitical Israel - but ISTM that his belief framework is actually placing that modern secular geopolitical nation where Christ ought to be. IOW - Hagee is doing the replacing.

I don't know Hagee.
I am opposed to saying that Israel is no longer Israel today but it is the church. I am merely opposed to this replacement. See my answer to keras below.
I never said we should give unconditional support to Israel. Of course one can be critical of human rights abuses they commit. Since Germany also commits human rights abuses, one can also be critical of them.
Here in the thread, Israel is criticised just for being like any other nation, and this isn't fair.

Hi Keras,
I also had to correct a reply I've made to you on page 6, please have look on it again.

keras said:
THEN, the great joining of the remnant of Judah and all the faithful Christians will take place and we will all come together in the holy Land, as Jeremiah 50:4-5, Isaiah 62:1-5 and many other prophesies tell us.

As I found out yesterday, Christians are his people nowadays. But they are not Israel.
Jeremiah 50 isn't talking about Christians. Isaiah 62 says nothing about Christians settling in the geopolitical Holy Land. It speaks about nations seeing something (not about settling there).

I think it get's aggressive when you promote idea of Christians settling in Israel, Christians should respect other people's possessions.

Thomas

mkgal1 · Dec 9, 2019

thomas_t said:
Hi Gal,
Christ is the light now, we agree

Now? But that seems like there's a time where you expect that to change or else wouldn't you have just written, "Christ is the light"?

thomas_t said:
I don't know Hagee.
I am opposed to saying that Israel is no longer Israel today but it is the church. I am merely opposed to this replacement.

I described Hagee's variety of "replacement" and how he inserts geopolitical Israel as the identity for the name "Israel" used in Isaiah 49:3. ISTM that, even though you don't know Hagee, you're in agreement with his replacement theology. Feel free to correct me, if I've got that wrong.

Isaiah 49:3 ~ He said to Me, "You are My Servant, Israel, In Whom I will show My glory."

Quoting from Albert Barnes commentary:
The only other interpretation, therefore, is that which refers it to the Messiah. This, which has been the common exposition of commentators, most manifestly agrees with the verses which follow, and with the account which occurs in the New Testament.

The account in Isaiah 49:4-8, is such as can be applied to no other one than he, and is as accurate and beautiful a description of him as if it had been made by one who had witnessed his labors, and heard from him the statement of his own plans. But still, a material question arises, why is this name ‹Israel‘ applied to the Messiah? It is applied to him nowhere else, and it is certainly remarkable that a name should be applied to an individual which is usually applied to an entire people. To this question the following answers, which are, indeed, little more than conjectures, may be returned:

1. Lowth and Vitringa suppose that it is because the name, in its full import and signification, can be given only to him; and that there is a reference here to the fact recorded in Genesis 32:28, where Jacob is said to have wrestled with God, and prevailed, and was, in consequence of that, called Israel. The full import of that name, says Lowth, pertains only to the Messiah, ‹who contended powerfully with God in behalf of mankind.‘

2. It is common in the Scriptures to use the names which occurred in the history of the Jews as descriptive of things which were to occur under the times of the Messiah, or as representing in general events that might occur at any time. Thus the names, Moab, Edom, Ashur, were used to denote the foes of God in general; the name of Elijah was given to John the Baptist (Hengstenberg).

3. In accordance with this, the name David is not unfrequently given to the Messiah, and he is spoken of under this name, as he was to be his descendant and successor.

4. For the same reason, the name Israel may be given to him - nor as the name of the Jewish people - but the name of the illustrious ancestor of the Jewish race, because he would possess his spirit, and would, like him, wrestle with God. He was to be a prince having power with God (compare Genesis 32:28), and would prevail. In many respects there would be a resemblance between him and this pious and illustrious ancestor of the Jewish people.

In whom I will be glorified - This means that the result of the Redeemer‘s work would be such as eminently to honor God. He would be glorified by the gift of such a Saviour; by his instructions, his example, the effect of his ministry while on earth, and by his death. The effect of the work of the Messiah as adapted to glorify God, is often referred to in the New Testament (see John 12:28; John 13:31-32; John 14:13; John 16:14; John 17:1-5). Isaiah 49:3 - He said to Me,

Douggg · Dec 9, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Now? But that seems like there's a time where you expect that to change or else wouldn't you have just written, "Christ is the light"?

I described Hagee's variety of "replacement" and how he inserts geopolitical Israel as the identity for the name "Israel" used in Isaiah 49:3. ISTM that, even though you don't know Hagee, you're in agreement with his replacement theology. Feel free to correct me, if I've got that wrong.

Isaiah 49:3 ~ He said to Me, "You are My Servant, Israel, In Whom I will show My glory."

Quoting from Albert Barnes commentary:
The only other interpretation, therefore, is that which refers it to the Messiah. This, which has been the common exposition of commentators, most manifestly agrees with the verses which follow, and with the account which occurs in the New Testament.

The account in Isaiah 49:4-8, is such as can be applied to no other one than he, and is as accurate and beautiful a description of him as if it had been made by one who had witnessed his labors, and heard from him the statement of his own plans. But still, a material question arises, why is this name ‹Israel‘ applied to the Messiah? It is applied to him nowhere else, and it is certainly remarkable that a name should be applied to an individual which is usually applied to an entire people. To this question the following answers, which are, indeed, little more than conjectures, may be returned:

1. Lowth and Vitringa suppose that it is because the name, in its full import and signification, can be given only to him; and that there is a reference here to the fact recorded in Genesis 32:28, where Jacob is said to have wrestled with God, and prevailed, and was, in consequence of that, called Israel. The full import of that name, says Lowth, pertains only to the Messiah, ‹who contended powerfully with God in behalf of mankind.‘

2. It is common in the Scriptures to use the names which occurred in the history of the Jews as descriptive of things which were to occur under the times of the Messiah, or as representing in general events that might occur at any time. Thus the names, Moab, Edom, Ashur, were used to denote the foes of God in general; the name of Elijah was given to John the Baptist (Hengstenberg).

3. In accordance with this, the name David is not unfrequently given to the Messiah, and he is spoken of under this name, as he was to be his descendant and successor.

4. For the same reason, the name Israel may be given to him - nor as the name of the Jewish people - but the name of the illustrious ancestor of the Jewish race, because he would possess his spirit, and would, like him, wrestle with God. He was to be a prince having power with God (compare Genesis 32:28), and would prevail. In many respects there would be a resemblance between him and this pious and illustrious ancestor of the Jewish people.

In whom I will be glorified - This means that the result of the Redeemer‘s work would be such as eminently to honor God. He would be glorified by the gift of such a Saviour; by his instructions, his example, the effect of his ministry while on earth, and by his death. The effect of the work of the Messiah as adapted to glorify God, is often referred to in the New Testament (see John 12:28; John 13:31-32; John 14:13; John 16:14; John 17:1-5). Isaiah 49:3 - He said to Me,

Jews are them whose forefathers goes back to the days of Uzziah the king of Judah.

Irrefutable proof is that when Jesus returns at his Second Coming in Zechariah 14 and the Mt. of Olives split in half, them who escape harm do so the same as their forefathers did in similitude in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. Zechariah 14:5 below.

All can currently see that the Mt. of Olives has not been split in half.

It is not split in half yet, because Jesus's Second Coming has not taken place. Jerusalem at that time will be saying blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, because they will have become Christians during the 7 years, and Jesus will be returning to rescue them.

Zechariah 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

mkgal1 · Dec 9, 2019

Douggg said:
Are your blood related forefathers, Jews, going back to the days of Uzziah the king of Judah? If not, then you are not a Jew, nor Israel.

The post you're responding to said nothing about ME. It was about how Hagee interprets that verse (Is 49:3) to be about geopolitical Israel - when I believe it's a Messianic prophecy about Christ. IOW - Hagee was replacing Christ with a secular political entity that formed long after Christ was revealed on earth.

Douggg · Dec 9, 2019

mkgal1 said:
The post you're responding to said nothing about ME. It was about how Hagee interprets that verse (Is 49:3) to be about geopolitical Israel - when I believe it's a Messianic prophecy about Christ. IOW - Hagee was replacing Christ with a secular political entity that formed long after Christ was revealed on earth.

I went back and edited my post.

The point I am making is that persons do not become Jews by virtue of becoming a Christian.

mkgal1 · Dec 9, 2019

Douggg said:
I went back and edited my post.

The point I am making is that persons do not become Jews by virtue of becoming a Christian.

Why are you arguing against that? I don't believe that's been suggested in this thread.

I shared this link yesterday in another thread to this approximately hour and a half-long documentary. I believe it does an excellent job of describing genuine replacement theology (and the harm it does):

The argument isn't about "who are Jews" - it comes down to (as I see it) whether there are two covenants (as dispensationalists believe) or if Christ Jesus, instead, fulfilled the covenant God made with Abraham. In the framework of the two covenant theology - Christ (and most of New Testament, really) are erased from the one covenant (inferring a different way of salvation).

Douggg · Dec 9, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Why are you arguing against that? I don't believe that's been suggested in this thread.

Some people have been in their posts.

mkgal1 · Dec 9, 2019

Douggg said:
Some people have been in their posts.

Quote one for reference, then, please. I believe you're using the word "Jew" in place of "Israel".

thomas_t · Dec 9, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Now? But that seems like there's a time where you expect that to change or else wouldn't you have just written, "Christ is the light"?

he's always the light, I was referring to the time when Israel was a light to the nations, Isaiah 49:6. Now that Christ has come some 2000 years ago, he's the light for us.

mkgal1 said:
ISTM that, even though you don't know Hagee, you're in agreement with his replacement theology. Feel free to correct me, if I've got that wrong.

I simply don't know him, so I can't know whether I'm in agreement with his writings or not.

mkgal1 said:
The argument isn't about "who are Jews" - it comes down to (as I see it) whether there are two covenants or if Christ Jesus, instead, fulfilled the covenant God made with Abraham. In the framework of the two covenant theology - Christ (and most of New Testament, really) are erased.

there are two promises: Christians are saved by grace.
Jews (as a group on the group level) are saved because of their connection to the forefathers (Romans 11:26).
I am no theologian to determine whether promise is the same as covenant...
The moment Jesus makes two promises at the same time, neither he nor the New Testament is getting erased. That's for sure. He isn't limited to issueing one only promise.

Thomas

Douggg · Dec 9, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Quote one for reference, then, please. I believe you're using the word "Jew" in place of "Israel".

The point I am making by citing Zechariah 14:3-5 is that persons do not become Jews by virtue of becoming a Christian. It has been implied all through this thread that the church has become Israel, and Christians have become Jews by virtue of becoming Christians.

mkgal1 · Dec 9, 2019

thomas_t said:
there are two promises: Christians are saved by grace.
Jews (as a group on the group level) are saved because of their connection to the forefathers (Romans 11:26).

I believe you're misunderstanding that verse. This is only ONE way - ONE promise - for ALL:

Romans 11:26 ~ And so all Israel will be saved; as it is written, "Out of Zion will come the Deliverer; He will banish ungodliness from Jacob."

Paul also wrote this:

Romans 9:8 ~ So it is not the children of the flesh who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as offspring.

Which is in agreement with what Christ Jesus said to these men that made the claim that they were descendants of Abraham. Here, Jesus seems to be suggesting that (again) "not all are Israel that are Israel" and that a spiritual identity is being referred to (based on faith and allegiance):

John 8:31-43 ~
So He said to the Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, you are truly My disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” “We are Abraham’s descendants,” they answered. “We have never been slaves to anyone. How can You say we will be set free?”Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. A slave is not a permanent member of the family, but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. I know you are Abraham’s descendants, but you are trying to kill Me because My word has no place within you. I speak of what I have seen in the presence of the Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.” “Abraham is our father,” they replied.

“If you were children of Abraham,” said Jesus, “you would do the works of Abraham. But now you are trying to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham never did such a thing. You are doing the works of your father.”

“We are not illegitimate children,” they declared. “Our only Father is God Himself.” Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I have come here from God. I have not come on My own, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message.

mkgal1 · Dec 9, 2019

thomas_t said:
he's always the light, I was referring to the time when Israel was a light to the nations, Isaiah 49:6. Now that Christ has come some 2000 years ago, he's the light for us.

I was with you in your first clause.....but then you lost me.

Christ has always definitely been the light referred to.

Isaiah 49:3-6 ~ “And He said to me, ‘You are My servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.’ Then I said, ‘I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and in vain; Yet surely my just reward is with the Lord, and my work with my God.’ And now the Lord says, Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, to bring Jacob back to Him, so that Israel is gathered to Him (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and My God shall be My strength), indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth’”

If this were about the Israelites, how could they bring Jacob (itself) back to God? How could Israel “raise up the tribes of Jacob” and “restore the preserved ones of Israel” (itself)? This would be God’s doing, not Israel’s own doing.

Isaiah also wrote this - about the Servant:

Isaiah 52:13-15 ~ “Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently; He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high. Just as many were astonished at you, so His visage was marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men; So shall He sprinkle many nations. Kings shall shut their mouths at Him; For what had not been told them they shall see, and what they had not heard they shall consider”

I'm still troubled by your statements like "now that Christ has come", because there's never been a time without Christ (maybe without Jesus of Nazareth.....but Christ is more than just God made flesh).

The Torah pointed to the coming of Messiah (His Servant) and those that believed the Law and the Prophets understood.

Acts 3:25-26 affirms this:

And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ When God raised up His servant, He sent Him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.”

It’s Jesus who is Abraham’s offspring, and He blesses the nations, beginning with the proclamation of the gospel to Jews in the first century.

The apostle Paul, in Galatians 3:7-8, declared that Jesus’ followers are Abraham’s offspring too:

“Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’

Christian Zionist "Replacement Theology"

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Blessings Collector

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Blessings Collector

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Blessings Collector

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Blessings Collector

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

Similar threads