Where Arminianism Fails.

fhansen said:

So, great, God directly authors all of the most most atrocious acts and underhanded deceit that has ever taken place in the world so that we may see His glory. Wonderful. Makes me wonder if hell should really be any different than heaven.

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God is not the author of sin. Where do you get that?

fhansen said:

We're not in hell yet. This is sort of a halfway house at this point, where we experience-or know-both good and evil and hopefully gain the wisdom to choose between the two when the ultimate Good comes knocking at our door.

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He is knocking. He has been knocking.

TODAY, If you hear His Voice, do not rebel like they did in the wilderness and perished.

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Deuteronomy 1:26-38; Psalm 95:6-11; Hebrews 3:7-19 ...

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30 The LORD your God, who is going before you, will fight for you, as he did for ... you, as a father carries his son, all the way you went until you reached this place. ... Today, if only you would hear his voice, 8 “Do not harden your hearts as you ... hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the wilderness, ...
Hebrews 3:16 For who were the ones who heard and rebelled ...

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For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by ... …15As it has been said: “Today, if you hear His voice, do not harden your ... Although you are fully aware of this, I want to remind you that after Jesus had ... we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in this wilderness!

Mark Quayle said:

Unless you can show where I am wrong, or at least illogical, I have shown that his argument, that Galatians claims (my words here) that hearing by faith is the cause of receiving the Spirit. (I.e. that Reformed Theology is wrong that salvific faith is of God alone.)

And I hadn't even gotten into other arguments about that --such as that the terminology and context in Galatians implies both are entirely of God.

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is your argument is that preposition is too ambiguous? Do you want to expand upon that? you just bring up the idea but never really articulate the finer points of why.

DamianWarS said:

is your argument is that preposition is too ambiguous? Do you want to expand upon that? you just bring up the idea but never really articulate the finer points of why.

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Fwiw, some translations render the text: "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith?" Does that not demonstrate to you the point he made was not a sure thing?

Mark Quayle said:

Fwiw, some translations render the text: "Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith?" Does that not demonstrate to you the point he made was not a sure thing?

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it demonstrates that you're not seeking a balanced view, you're only seeking a view that agrees with your position through fringe translations. A balanced view may address these concerns but it shouldn't ignore the vastly dominate way the passage is translated which would be irresponsible. This also is only looking at translations, didn't you want to talk about Greek?

Josheb said:

That's three things, not two.

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Haha, quite right.

Josheb said:

I will say this: Calvinism has emphasized sovereignty over grace and not the other way around. Calvinism does not hold God's sovereignty in any way usurped human volition but it does hold that sin has done so, and all Christian soteriologies agree on this one point. WCF 3.1 states plainly what God ordained from eternity He did so without 1) being the author of sin, 2) without causing violence to human will, and 3) without causing violence to the liberty or contingency or secondary causes. Sin does that, not God.

But Arminians/Wesleyans/Traditionalists say the God-prepared sinner can choose God while still in the dead and enslaved state and then be saved.

It is a Fail.

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Given that you're not keen to respond to my three questions, it's a little difficult for me to respond adequately, because I'd just want to revert back to them.

But I think the presuppositions are all just wrong. Calvinism has, as you say, emphasized sovereignty over grace, yet I can't see any good reason to do so biblically. And not only that, but it has presupposed a certain idea of sovereignty that seems more like a curious mix of the Platonic ideal (immutability, in particular) and enlightenment philosophy. It's no wonder it comes out the other end like it does. It's highly logical, yes, but that's about all it really is in my opinion. When I was a Calvinist, all it did was produce anxiety. Limited atonement was the first of the TULIP to fall.

Having said that, Arminianism does tend to borrow tons of ideas from industrialisation, for want of a better word. All that talk about taking up your responsibility and so on. Arminianism tends to stray to a very practical sort of soteriology that revolves around your responsibility while Calvinism tends to stray into a very mystical sort of soteriology that is grounded on God's immutable, hidden will. I can't really find assurance in a hidden will, it's impossible to do so, and neither do I find much assurance in my fickle will. So I find both inadequate in their present-day forms when it comes to bringing assurance of faith - which is what both are trying to achieve, incidentally.

Classical Arminianism though is much better in its approach, realising that the Holy Spirit is ultimately the one who brings salvation and not human freedom. I think anyone who really cares about trying to discover the truth for themselves and is not caught up in their own tribalism over the issue would do good to research the classical approach in Arminianism, before it became distorted by the later Wesleyan holiness traditions.

My approach is to say that neither predestination or human will is what assures salvation, but simply that Jesus died on the cross in history and was raised again, and that He died for all, including you and I. I think this is the biblical approach to soteriology. It's why Paul claims that we are to preach Christ crucified. In no place whatsoever does Paul say we preach predestination or that we preach the responsibility of free agents. It is the gospel, the message of Jesus, the Word of God which produces faith and it is Jesus' death and resurrection that guarantees salvation for all - not God's hidden will; not a predetermined choice by the Absolute; and neither the freedom of human will. It's safe to say that such a gospel is the power of salvation and yet anyone who rejects such a gospel places themselves back under judgement. How the human will works in the equation is irrelevant, in my opinion, and pure speculative philosophy. It's interesting stuff but not a hill to die on. Jesus went through death so that when we are in him we will be raised with him. That is the end of the matter. He died on the right hill . And we believe it. And He died for all.

-57 said:

They haven't been sanctified and glorified yet.

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So is the faith that God provides not perfect for salvation? Does one have to wait to be glorified before their faith is perfect for salvation?

royal priest said:

We are God's enemies by nature. Man had said in his heart 'there is no God.'
That is why God promises to give us a new heart. Unless and until that happens we will reject God. It doesn't depend on the eloquence of the preacher or the persuasion of the argument for the things of God are spiritually discerned.

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Agree with everything here, apart from "unless and until that happens".
That makes it sound like God may decide, or choose, not to give new hearts to some of the sinners for whom Christ died.
It doesn't depend on the eloquence of the preacher - but if that preacher is filled with the Spirit and speaking words inspired by God, that is what will touch, move or convict someone. The Spirit ministers to people in their need. I have heard sermons which have moved, and meant a lot, to some people; while others at the same service have remained unmoved.

Hazelelponi said:

Your not understanding.

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Probably not; that's why I asked.

Hazelelponi said:

We are all, prior to coming to faith in Christ, enemies of God. No man is more or less sinful than the next, and all man are enemies of God.

We ALL deserve, quite justly, damnation.. every single human being.

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Agree.

Hazelelponi said:

God chooses some, of His own accord and not our righteousness or deserving behavior - to show His great love, and mercy toward mankind.

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Disagree.
That would be showing selective love and mercy to those he created - based on nothing but a whim.
That would be doing what Jesus told us not to do; loving only those who would love him back, Matthew 5:44-48. Instead, Jesus tells us to love our enemies and be perfect as God is perfect.

Hazelelponi said:

Saving all could not prove mercy and grace,

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Of course it could.
God chose to have mercy on mankind. We sinned against a Holy God and deserve death; he sent his Son to give us life. God could have destroyed ALL in the flood; he could have killed Adam and Eve and created two more people who would/could not disobey him. He did not destroy Adam and Eve. He drove them out of the Garden, yes, but he clothed them because they were ashamed of their nakedness and they lived for many years.
Grace is giving to us what we don't deserve. As you said, we all deserve death; God gives life. We deserve punishment, God saves us, reconciles us to himself and gives forgiveness, hope and peace.

Hazelelponi said:

but plucking some out of the fire and appointing us as children... now that's mercy we can see, mercy we can experience in every sense of the word.

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That's select mercy - even favouritism.
God has made it possible for ALL to be forgiven and plucked from the fire. He didn't tell his Son to die for just a few; Jesus died for everyone.

Hazelelponi said:

because we know - we know who we are, we know there's no way we deserve this, there's no way we should have escaped our just punishment..

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No, but that applies to all mankind. God created humans in his image, Genesis 1:26-27, all have sinned and fallen short of God's glory, Romans 3:23, and Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8.

Hazelelponi said:

He was just merciful, and loving.. to me. to you.

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And has been to ALL of his creation.
That's why we are told to preach the Good News to the ends of the earth - there are people who haven't heard, and don't know, of his love, mercy and salvation.
Jesus never told his disciples, "I want you to go and preach the Good News. God has decided not to save everyone, so I will show you which people will be sent to hell so that you don't waste time preaching to those who haven't been chosen."
Jesus never told the rich young man, "I'm not going to tell you how to get eternal life because you haven't been chosen, and you are going to walk away from me."

Hazelelponi said:

If it was a "doesn't matter what you do you'll go to heaven regardless" type scenario, we couldn't experience the fullness of this gift..

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I never said it was.
Going to heaven/receiving eternal life is possible because of what HE has done, not on anything we could do.

Hazelelponi said:

If my daughter isn't in heaven when I go to my final rest, I cannot say God is unjust.

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God has provided salvation for all. If your daughter is not in heaven it will be because she KNEW the Gospel and how much God loved her but chose to reject it - deliberately and consistently.

Hazelelponi said:

But for me? I can say God is merciful in all His ways, Just in everything He does...

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Yes, he is.
And in his great love he has extended that mercy to ALL. Whether or not everyone receives his gift, Romans 6:23, is another matter.

Hazelelponi said:

I didn't deserve salvation,

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Neither does anyone.
ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Romans 3:23. ALL deserve death, Romans 6:23a - yet Christ died for sinners, Romans 5:8.

Hazelelponi said:

And right here, right now, I know and experience the full measure of what has occured - God loved me, for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that I may have life everlasting.

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Yes - he died so that ALL may have everlasting life.
Not everyone WILL; I'm not a universalist. Jesus made it clear that some would reject him and be punished. But ALL have that opportunity.

How would that otherwise be just; God punishing people for rejecting the Gospel and his Son when he knew that he had not chosen them to believe and receive salvation? The people in hell would therefore be there because God, who is love and loves his enemies, had chosen them to be there.
I don't believe that.

Hazelelponi said:

who would do the snatching in a free will scenario?

a) man.

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Satan.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

...

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zoidar said:

Why someone isn't saved can only be two different options. Either it's God's fault or man's fault. I'll go with man.

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It's been said the reason someone is saved is because of God's mercy. The reason someone will be lost is because of man's denial. Man to be blamed, God to be given glory...

Dave L said:

The basic claim Arminians make is "You must choose to believe in order to be saved". But you must already believe [have the Holy Spirit] or you would not choose to believe. And Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So choosing to believe is a quasi repentance that leads to true repentance.

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The best bits of both Arminianism and Calvinism are true: God's love of all and His absolute sovereignty. Add that up, you get...UNIVERSAL SALVATION. (That's your cue to rejoice)

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

Shrewd Manager said:

The best bits of both Arminianism and Calvinism are true: God's love of all and His absolute sovereignty. Add that up, you get...UNIVERSAL SALVATION. (That's your cue to rejoice)

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I thought universal salvation was the belief that everybody will be saved?
If that was true, why would Jesus, and the apostles, have preached repentance? Why repent, believe in Jesus and serve him if everyone is going to be saved eventually, no matter what they believe?

Strong in Him said:

I thought universal salvation was the belief that everybody will be saved?
If that was true, why would Jesus, and the apostles, have preached repentance? Why repent, believe in Jesus and serve him if everyone is going to be saved eventually, no matter what they believe?

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When people get saved, they believe and repent. God changes hearts and minds, we can't do it by ourselves. He gives us free will, but has ultimately predestined mankind to salvation. It's the gospel according to Isaiah and everyone else. Jesus has the keys to death and Hades. It's the Omega plan. Now that's good news for all mankind, just like the angel says.

Strong in Him said:

I thought universal salvation was the belief that everybody will be saved?
If that was true, why would Jesus, and the apostles, have preached repentance? Why repent, believe in Jesus and serve him if everyone is going to be saved eventually, no matter what they believe?

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Because Christian universalism doesn't teach it doesn't matter what you believe - I only that all will eventually believe in Jesus.

Shrewd Manager said:

The best bits of both Arminianism and Calvinism are true: God's love of all and His absolute sovereignty. Add that up, you get...UNIVERSAL SALVATION. (That's your cue to rejoice)

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:28)

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If we are sane, we want all men to be saved. If we are biblical we know there is double destination. In my left hand I hold the hope for all men, in my right hand I hold the knowing of the double destination. I never let my hands meet.