Where Arminianism Fails.

Dave L said:

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

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But, the man who the Spirit has convicted, can understand and choose to believe or not.

-57 said:

Why does one accept or reject this free gift of grace?

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The point is that, while one can never accept without the Holy Spirit moving them to cooperate, they can still refuse. Grace is resistible.

Dave L said:

Why do all hear the same gospel where some simply believe without choosing to? Or others hear it as law and turn it into works, while others reject it?

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we make choices all the time but we seem to accept this without the essential crises. Regardless you have just swept scripture under a rug trying some sort of philosophical misdirection. You may be happy to do this, but scripture still says hearing with faith is a pre-salvation moment where the spirit is not yet upon us. I get this isn't the point you want to make but you can't just cover it up and pretend it's not there nor can you insert what isn't there, these are the type of motives that build heretical beliefs.

renniks said:

But, the man who the Spirit has convicted, can understand and choose to believe or not.

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Just to get you thinking about that statement, reconcile that with John 6:44:
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

Then think about Ephesians 1:3-6:
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.

What do you conclude from those verses? There are many more in scripture that make that point.

When I came to Christ, I went to a church that teaches "Arminianism". Having no understanding of it, I really didn't question it at all. It was through reading scriptures like those above I began to question if I chose God or God chose me.

As I matured as a believer, I learned of "Arminianism" and "Calvinism". I don't much debate them...but I believe God chose every believer...we didn't chose Him...He chose us! I believed Calvinism long before I understood what it was, but it was through study of the scriptures, that I had to accept that teaching to be correct.

royal priest said:

"Without Me you can do nothing" John 15:5
Jesus is the vine. We are only the branches.

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Yes! He tells us that so we'll hopefully gain the wisdom to opt to be with, rather than apart from, Him.

Dave L said:

You cannot choose Christ from the flesh. Only an idol you name Jesus.

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it's just a pov without scripture.

Dave L said:

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (KJV 1900)

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And yet it's obvious that believers don't always abide in Christ and live in the Spirit-they still sin at times, which only goes to show that the option, of departing from Christ, is always there, and this is why we're exhorted and warned and admonished not to live by the flesh.

renniks said:

You are switching to believers now, not how to be saved. Different topic.
But, since you brought it up, he also says you have to remain in the vine or you will be cut off, as opposed to once saved, always saved.

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Our responsibility does not mean God is not enabling us to be responsible

fhansen said:

Man is lost; he cannot possibly find God even if he wanted to. So while the Holy Spirit finds us and enables us to believe, He still nonetheless never forces us to believe. We can, IOW, still say "no" at any point along the way even if we cannot say "yes" to begin with without Him. Faith is both a gift-and a choice-the choice to accept that gift.

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I heard a guy who had lived his whole life in Nome, Alaska say that water won't freeze as long as it is flowing. What you are saying is a bit like that.

To say that he "forces" one to believe is like saying that he created people for the purpose of condemning the majority. Human reasoning is really funny sometimes.

Of course we often say "no" along the way, just as we say "no" sometimes after regeneration! That doesn't mean that faith is also the result of choosing to accept that gift.

Enabling us to believe is the result of regeneration. I'm not going to pretend that it is a sudden thing for everyone, where we can say at this point I was not born again, and an instant later I was. But I will say that regeneration causes the faith. Salvific Faith is made by and given by the Holy Spirit within. It could perhaps even be said Salvific Faith IS the Holy Spirit within. There is no other cause.

"Belief", like "Faith", comes with two different kinds of meaning. One is the usual belief that anyone can do --even the devils believe, and tremble. Faith from God is something that will never be lost, though it may seem to through human eyes. What God began he will complete.

DamianWarS said:

So the HS chooses those for eternal life which implicitly means he also chooses those for the antithesis of eternal life. The gospel then seems rather arbitrary and it turns from the good news to the lucky news as salvation is no more than a lottery (at least from our perspective)

Paul tells us in Galations we receive the HS by hearing with faith. So this informs us prior to the receiving the HS there is a response that is pre-HS.

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Of what use is "our perspective" in this question, specially if our perspective assumes "luck" or "chance"? The fact that we see something some certain way is of no use in determining fact.

I have seen a book on Prepositions in the Greek NT as translated into 7 languages. It can open your eyes to see what "by" can mean to our minds.

If "hearing with faith" is the means (as in "duct") of receiving the Holy Spirit it can easily mean simultaneity or even imply he has used two ways of describing (or two different viewpoints of) the same event. But we don't need to go there to know that the whole work of Faith, Belief and indeed Salvation is the work of God.

royal priest said:

Our responsibility does not mean God is not enabling us to be responsible

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Enabling for sure --in fact, compelling us.

Dave L said:

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (KJV 1900)

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Yes, that's the ideal, not always the reality-and no way to predict with 100% that one will persevere in it to the end anyway.

fhansen said:

Yes, that's the ideal, not always the reality-and no way to predict with 100% that one will persevere in it to the end anyway.

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Persevering imo just refers to not losing the first love. I don’t believe that anyone but satan is a taskmaster.

Dave L said:

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (KJV 1900)

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Calling Arminians partakers of idolatry is a heavy claim. This verse contributes nothing to support that. All it shows is idolatry is wrong but why is arminianism the bad guy? Can't I just say Calvinism is idolatry and show the same verse? See it doesn't work that way either.

Mark Quayle said:

I have seen a book on Prepositions in the Greek NT as translated into 7 languages. It can open your eyes to see what "by" can mean to our minds

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We can talk about Greek if you want to but you haven't really brought up any useful information to be specific with.

jahel said:

Persevering imo just refers to not losing the first love. I don’t believe that anyone but satan is a taskmaster.

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Really? No admonitions to believe-and remain faithful, or to obey the commandments, or feed the poor, no longer any obligation to be righteous or holy under the New Covenant? If we put blinders on while reading Scripture...maybe we could arrive at that conclusion.
"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality,he will give eternal life."