Will people go to Hell for worshipping on Sunday?

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Erik Nelson

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YHWH = Jesus

The Name above all names.




JLB
Jesus (Yahshua) = YH(WH) saves

related one is a Name, the other a sentence using the Name with a verb

I hope you are not somehow convincing anyone else that the Father is somehow the same as the Son, makes no sense
 
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JLB777

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I hope you are not somehow convincing anyone else that the Father is somehow the same as the Son, makes no sense



please stop accusing me of this.


I have said repeatedly the Son is not the Father.


The work of creation is the work of the Son.



JLB
 
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klutedavid

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could we clarify, circumcision was an "Abrahamic Law" given to Abraham... and continued by his descendants including not only Moses but all of Israel?

The "Books of Moses" (Pentateuch, Torah) which he is credited with authoring detail human history all the way back, so including much ancient history before Moses' time

His books he wrote detail a series of Laws which "stack" on top of each other, including Laws given by God to Noah, Abraham & Moses

Think you could clarify, that the Mosaic Books describe "Noachide Law", "Abrahamic Law", "Mosaic Law" ?
The word 'law' really does not appear in the OT until the book of Exodus.

If I remember correctly, the 'law', is mentioned just once in reference to Abraham in the book of Genesis. That single occurrence of the word 'law' in Genesis could also be a later interpolation in the text.

Paul seems to identify 'the law' solely with Moses and the book of Exodus.

Galatians 3:16-17
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

Further, Paul's usage of that term 'the law' is strongly associated with the written law of Moses.

Romans 2:27
And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The commandment given to Abraham concerning circumcision was not regarded by Paul as the written law, the letter of the law.
 
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klutedavid

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Jesus (Yahshua) = YH(WH) saves

related one is a Name, the other a sentence using the Name with a verb

I hope you are not somehow convincing anyone else that the Father is somehow the same as the Son, makes no sense
Makes perfect sense.

John 14:7
If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.

John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

How can you say that apostles were not looking directly at the Father?
 
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JLB777

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The word 'law' really does not appear in the OT until the book of Exodus.

If I remember correctly, the 'law', is mentioned just once in reference to Abraham in the book of Genesis. That single occurrence of the word 'law' in Genesis could also be a later interpolation in the text.

Paul seems to identify 'the law' solely with Moses and the book of Exodus.

Galatians 3:16-17
Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise.

Further, Paul's usage of that term 'the law' is strongly associated with the written law of Moses.

Romans 2:27
And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?

Romans 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The commandment given to Abraham concerning circumcision was not regarded by Paul as the written law, the letter of the law.


Yes.


Abraham kept His commandments and laws 430 years before the law was added, temporarily to the covenant.

  • because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws. Genesis 26:5



So, when the law was taken out of the way, it did not nullify the preexisting commandments that were contained in the covenant.


The Point:


The commandments remain part of the (refreshed) new covenant.



JLB
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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So you didn't say this in the post I quoted?
"He addresses this very issue, but observes that the vowels of "Adonai" are A-O-A whereas the correct form is E-O-A
When you say "Adonai", you don't utter "Eh-donai" but "Ah-donai" hence "Yah-weh" instead of "Yeh-oweh"
I don't see how what you quoted can possibly be correct -- inserting the vowels of "Ah-doh-nI" into YHWH = YAH... not YEH..."
As I said the JE addresses the grammar in the 13 page article I quoted from. And nobody, no how has ever refuted my post. Shalom.

I stand by what I wrote regarding the appropriate use of grammar. BTW, can you find me a Hebrew name that uses the theophoric prefix "Yah" and/or the theophoric suffix "YeHo"?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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  • Judas
  • The Chief Priests and the elders.
  • The people the chief priests persuaded.
But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. The governor answered and said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?”
They said, “Barabbas!”
Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!
Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.” Matthew 27:20-25
“I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”


No Judas, nor any Jew, physically killed him. Only the Romans could carry out the death sentence. Some Jews were absolutely complicit, Judas, some of the Temple administration as well as some of the population. Even Yeshua said so...He would be handed over to the gentiles (Romans) to be killed.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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an unfolding development of?

And early Christianity was "bi-cameral", everyone could tell ethnically Jewish Christians following all Mosaic Law from gentile Christians following "only" Noachide Law

Paul says "there is no Jew or Greek, male of female..." but no one was left in doubt as to who were the sisters and who were the brothers

Yes, they were all "united" (John 17:20-23) but they were all exactly the same

Judaism was the only monotheistic show in town for a LONG time and there were always many gentile converts. These converts would learn Torah every Shabbat. This changed later.
 
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Der Alte

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I stand by what I wrote regarding the appropriate use of grammar. BTW, can you find me a Hebrew name that uses the theophoric prefix "Yah" and/or the theophoric suffix "YeHo"?
Why, I have never said that? This is my position which I have posted before. Please note the historical evidence which the authors of the article refer to. There might be a deliberate distinction between the name of the creator and theophoric names which begin with יה
If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ((יהוה) or Yahaweh (יהוה). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (יה ) is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho (יהו ), and Jo or Yo (יו contracted from יהו , which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו ) in the second part of such names.
.....The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε.
.....At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").
Jewish Encyclopedia online

 
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Why, I have never said that? This is my position which I have posted before. Please note the historical evidence which the authors of the article refer to. There might be a deliberate distinction between the name of the creator and theophoric names which begin with יה
If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ((יהוה) or Yahaweh (יהוה). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (יה ) is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho (יהו ), and Jo or Yo (יו contracted from יהו , which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו ) in the second part of such names.
.....The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε.
.....At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").
Jewish Encyclopedia online

It is true the Samaritans use "Iabe" and we all know what Yeshua said to them: You worship what you do not know, we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews... John 4:22
 
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Der Alte

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It is true the Samaritans use "Iabe" and we all now what Yeshua said to them: You worship what you do not know, we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews... John 4:22
Samaritan was not the only historical evidence cited.
 
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Do you stone people to death for picking up sticks to kindle a fire on the Sabbath?

Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15

For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law. Hebrews 7:12

JLB

Why would I? It is not my responsibility, I am not a judge nor on the beit din. Of course since there is no Temple or priesthood, some laws can not be kept, but that does not mean ALL the laws are to be disgarded. Laws were still kept after the 1st Temple was destroyed as well as in Babylonian captivity. Also, Yeshua taught that he that is without sin should cast the first stone...
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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MATTHEW 28:1
This verse should read;

Matt 28:1 Evening and sabbaths (not Sabbath) the lighting up,
..., Mary Magdalene and the other Mary came to see
the tomb.

This verse is often mistranslated. The start of this verse begins with the
Greek word for 'evening'. However, renderings often incorrectly show the
word 'after'.

The plural form of Sabbath at the beginning of this verse is not a reference
to the Sabbath which has just finished. Rather it is a reference to the
seven week period known as the 'sabbaths'.

In this year, the day after the weekly Sabbath was not a commanded rest day.
For this reason the ladies were visiting the tomb with their prepared spices.


OTHER 'SABBATHS'
There are many other New Testament verses which refer to 'sabbaths'.

These being a reference to sabbaths in general; ie a) the weekly Sabbath,
b) the Day of Atonement and c) the other six annual commanded rest days.

Matt 12:5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbaths
the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and
are blameless?

12:10 And behold, there was a man who had a withered hand.
And they asked Him, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on
the Sabbaths?"; that they might accuse Him.
:11 Then He said to them, "What man is there among you
who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the
Sabbaths, will not lay hold of it and lift it out?
:12 "Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep?
Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbaths."

Mark 2:24 And the Pharisees said to Him, "Look, why do they
do what is not lawful on the Sabbaths?"

3:2 So they watched Him closely, whether He would heal
him on the Sabbaths, so that they might accuse Him.
:3 And He said to the man who had the withered hand,
"Step forward."
:4 Then He said to them, "Is it lawful on the Sabbaths
to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?"
But they kept silent.

Luke 6:2 And some of the Pharisees said to them, "Why are
you doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbaths?"

:9 Then Jesus said to them, "I will ask you one thing:
Is it lawful on the Sabbaths to do good or to do evil,
to save life or to destroy?"
 
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Erik Nelson

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please stop accusing me of this.


I have said repeatedly the Son is not the Father.


The work of creation is the work of the Son.



JLB
creation was the work of God the Father through His Word

the carpenter and His hammer

the hammer is not the carpenter, even if it is their best tool

Makes perfect sense.

John 14:7
If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.

John 14:9
Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

How can you say that apostles were not looking directly at the Father?
John 1:18?
John 3:16?
John 1:14?

God sent His son the word but didn't come himself, lest everyone be vaporized

Exodus 33:20

Exodus 33:20?

our Lord Jesus Christ pre-incarnated as the Angel Messenger of God who, carrying God's Name with authority over sin, led the Israelites from Egypt = Exodus 23:21 = Jude 1:5

the visible immanent messenger on earth, is not the invisible transcendent Sender of the messenger in heaven

the Son on earth is not the Father in heaven


Why, I have never said that? This is my position which I have posted before. Please note the historical evidence which the authors of the article refer to. There might be a deliberate distinction between the name of the creator and theophoric names which begin with יה
If the explanation of the form above given be the true one, the original pronunciation must have been Yahweh ((יהוה) or Yahaweh (יהוה). From this the contracted form Jah or Yah (יה ) is most readily explained, and also the forms Jeho or Yeho (יהו ), and Jo or Yo (יו contracted from יהו , which the word assumes in combination in the first part of compound proper names, and Yahu or Yah (יהו ) in the second part of such names.
.....The fact may also be mentioned that in Samaritan poetry יהוה rimes with words similar in ending to Yahweh, and Theodoret ("Quæst. 15 in Exodum") states that the Samaritans pronounced the name Iαβέ. Epiphanius ascribes the same pronunciation to an early Christian sect. Clement of Alexandria, still more exactly, pronounces 'Iαουέ or 'Iαουαί, and Origen, 'Iα. Aquila wrote the name in archaic Hebrew letters. In the Jewish-Egyptian magic-papyri it appears as Ιαωουηε.
.....At least as early as the third century B.C. the name seems to have been regarded by the Jews as a "nomen ineffabile," on the basis of a somewhat extreme interpretation of Ex. xx. 7 and Lev. xxiv. 11 (see Philo, "De Vita Mosis," iii. 519, 529). Written only in consonants, the true pronunciation was forgotten by them. The Septuagint, and after it the New Testament, invariably render κύριος ("the Lord").
Jewish Encyclopedia online
you have the Catholic encyclopedia and YRM.org on your side, along with all of the references they both cite, certainly most of which you appear to be aware of already

Why would I? It is not my responsibility, I am not a judge nor on the beit din. Of course since there is no Temple or priesthood, some laws can not be kept, but that does not mean ALL the laws are to be disgarded. Laws were still kept after the 1st Temple was destroyed as well as in Babylonian captivity. Also, Yeshua taught that he that is without sin should cast the first stone...
Yashua?

Yet they are the only Jews that use anything similar...

Samaritans using "Iabe"
of course you (and everyone else who is reading this) do recognize that

W --> V --> B

eg Jacob = Yakov from an even earlier W, yes?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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you have the Catholic encyclopedia and YRM.org on your side, along with all of the references they both cite, certainly most of which you appear to be aware of already

Yashua?

of course you (and everyone else who is reading this) do recognize that

W --> V --> B

eg Jacob = Yakov from an even earlier W, yes?

Yashua...no. V/B yes...(like Av and Abba)...W is more Arabic...you think Yakow? BTW, that yrm.org site is ridiculous...
 
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JLB777

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No Judas, nor any Jew, physically killed him. Only the Romans could carry out the death sentence. Some Jews were absolutely complicit, Judas, some of the Temple administration as well as some of the population. Even Yeshua said so...He would be handed over to the gentiles (Romans) to be killed.


Again as I stated several times now, I not addressing or disputing that the Roman soldiers were ordered to crucify the Lord.


What I am addressing is your statement that said ...


I don't remember one Jew killing Yeshua...lots of Romans, yes.


Here is what the scripture says about that.


But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus. The governor answered and said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?”
They said, “Barabbas!”
Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?”
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!
Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?”
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!”
When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”
And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.” Matthew 27:20-25

“I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.”


again


You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. Which of the prophets did your fathers not persecute? And they killed those who foretold the coming of the Just One, of whom you now have become the betrayers and murderers, who have received the law by the direction of angels and have not kept it.” Acts 7:51-53


again



But Peter and the other apostles answered and said: “We ought to obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised up Jesus whom you murdered by hanging on a tree. Acts 5:29-30


The Jews murdered Jesus.




JLB
 
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