BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

Lazarus Short · Dec 7, 2019

Rick Otto said:
Right. I'm not denying He is the Saviour of all mankind,
I'm trying to reconcile that with the reality of His role as King and therefore His commitment to justice.

C'mon, you gonna be 'lukewarm' about God's justice? ( I can parry your thrust. Get to the point of resolution, man! lol or we can use poker: I see your lukewarm and raise you a "lawless". )

Do you recall that God's justice was to send His Own Son down here to die for our benefit?

Further, look at the 20th chapter of the Revelation, in which there are two judgments. Before each judgment, Satan is taken out of the way...and so as a result, the "prosecutor's chair" is effectively empty!

God is not only committed to justice, He is committed to mercy: "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32, KJV

Der Alte · Dec 7, 2019

FineLinen said:
...

FineLinen said:
<FL>Dear Rick: There is zero question who St. Paul is addressing. Those saints are the elect or the malista if you will. But reconciliation extends to the all, the pas and the ta pante.
There is a perfect God equation.
Adam1>>>many "made sinners">>>
Last Adam>>>many "made righteous"

Unfortunately your proof text does not say what you think in does.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

All mankind are "in Adam" because they are all literal descendants of Adam but all mankind is not "in Christ."

Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The converse of this verse is there is "condemnation to them which are NOT in Christ Jesus, who walk after the flesh, but NOT after the Spirit."

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

The converse of this verse is "if any man NOT be in Christ, he is NOT a new creature: old things are NOT passed away."

Gal 3;26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The converse of this verse is "ye are NOT all the children of God by lack of faith in Christ Jesus"

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

The converse of this verse is "He will not gather together all things NOT in Christ,"

Eph 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

The converse of this verse is "You who are far off will NOT be made nigh by the blood of Christ."

Der Alte · Dec 7, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
...

<LS>Do you recall that God's justice was to send His Own Son down here to die for our benefit?
Further, look at the 20th chapter of the Revelation, in which there are two judgments. Before each judgment, Satan is taken out of the way...and so as a result, the "prosecutor's chair" is effectively empty!
God is not only committed to justice, He is committed to mercy: "For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32, KJV<LS>

...

But let us read the next Chapter 21.

Revelation 21:4-8
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
(6) And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
(7) He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Although Satan has been defeated in chap.20 And in vs. 4 the voice from the throne says "no more death" and In vs. 5 "I make all things new." In vs. 8 eight groups of people are thrown into the lake of fire which is the second death.

mmksparbud · Dec 7, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
In the world of the internet forum, the above is known as a sidestep, and in this case as usual, what I brought up was not dealt with. I don't suppose I would do any better if I did find the verses you keep demanding.

You won't find them, because they are not there!

Lazarus Short · Dec 7, 2019

mmksparbud said:
You won't find them, because they are not there!

How about:

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32, KJV

I have many more I could easily post - just ask.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 7, 2019

Potentially (maybe) daily
it might be possible to build wrongly (with wood, hay and stubble) on a good foundation,

but if the foundation is wrong, nothing else can be truly right.

So what does this mean? If someone builds on u.r., everything built falls down - it cannot stand.

But those who build on CHrist, the only solid eternal foundation, their wood , hay and stubble may burn up in the day,
but if they are in and on Christ as written, their souls may be saved as written.

mmksparbud · Dec 7, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
How about:

"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32, KJV

I have many more I could easily post - just ask.

I asked for a verse that states God said anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Him. Or a verse that states there is a 2nd chance after death. All there is --is that there is a 2nd death, there is no resurrection from that 2nd death listed.

Lazarus Short · Dec 7, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Potentially (maybe) daily
it might be possible to build wrongly (with wood, hay and stubble) on a good foundation,

but if the foundation is wrong, nothing else can be truly right.

So what does this mean? If someone builds on u.r., everything built falls down - it cannot stand.

But those who build on CHrist, the only solid eternal foundation, their wood , hay and stubble may burn up in the day,
but if they are in and on Christ as written, their souls may be saved as written.

Do you mean to imply that UR advocates are not in Christ and do not build on that foundation?

On the other hand, given the tenacity with which Hell and damnation advocates cling to their doctrines, I wonder about their foundation.

Jesus the Christ first - all else is secondary, and since He is the Savior of the world, Hell and damnation are secondary.

Lazarus Short · Dec 7, 2019

mmksparbud said:
I asked for a verse that states God said anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Him. Or a verse that states there is a 2nd chance after death. All there is --is that there is a 2nd death, there is no resurrection from that 2nd death listed.

But, is the Second Death the death of those being refined in the LoF...or is it the death of Death? Since my Bible states that Death will be the last enemy to be defeated, I lean to the latter, especially since the Second Death is declared right after Death and Hell [hades or the grave is a better rendering] are tossed into the LoF. See the Revelation 20:14.

EDIT: The inescapable implication of Death being defeated [see First Corinthians 15:26] as the last enemy, is that no one can thereafter be dead and/or in Hell. Deny it all you care to, it is right there in front of you.

FineLinen · Dec 7, 2019

mmksparbud said:
I asked for a verse that states God said anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Him. Or a verse that states there is a 2nd chance after death. All there is --is that there is a 2nd death, there is no resurrection from that 2nd death listed.

Dear Lady: There is no verse that says anybody comes out of our God the consuming Fire. He is the final resting place of the all.

This dear lady is NOT a giant heavenly gambling establishment of chance!

No first chance, no second chance, NO chance

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 7, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
Do you mean to imply that UR advocates are not in Christ and do not build on that foundation?

The ur teachings and all that is associated with it is wrong, thus wood hay and stubble that will all be burned away (the sooner the better).
The foundation is something else, as is who is in Christ and who is not.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 7, 2019

mmksparbud said:
I asked for a verse that states God said anyone comes out of the lake of fire unto life eternal with Him. Or a verse that states there is a 2nd chance after death. All there is --is that there is a 2nd death, there is no resurrection from that 2nd death listed.

But in false mythology, there is a hope for those for everyone in fact....
thus the appeal to the flesh and to the carnal mind....

Shrewd Manager · Dec 7, 2019

Der Alter said:
<SM>Ain't universalism great. The scriptures just keep yielding up one pearl after another, and lighting our path on the correct usage of terms like death, judgment and punishment. The damnationists hang on stubbornly to their carnal interpretations, but what good is a brick to a drowning man? The spirit gives life!<SM>
The false hope of universalism and its proponents keep posting their out-of-context proof texts and adamantly ignoring the rest of the Bible.

Cascading down. Salvation is the cloth from which the Bible is cut. God's right arm. The alpha and omega. The plan and its fulfillment. Universal everything.

yeshuaslavejeff · Dec 7, 2019

Saint Steven · Dec 7, 2019

Rick Otto said:
I think we can understand " who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" to mean that though His saving grace is sufficient, it isn't applied to unbelievers.

Are you sure?

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Der Alte · Dec 7, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
How about:
"For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." Romans 11:32, KJV
I have many more I could easily post - just ask.

ελεηση/eleese the word translated "might have mercy" is in the subjunctive mood, the mood of probability and potentiality the action may or may not happen depending on circumstances. If Paul had meant to say "shall have mercy" he would have written ελεει/eleei the active indicative mood as he did in Rom 9:18.

Der Alte · Dec 7, 2019

Shrewd Manager said:
Cascading down. Salvation is the cloth from which the Bible is cut. God's right arm. The alpha and omega. The plan and its fulfillment. Universal everything.

Empty platitudes with zero scriptures. I would like to see just one scripture, 2 or more would be better, where God, Himself, or Jesus, Himself, say unequivocally that all mankind, will be saved no matter what including the unrighteous, even after they have died in their sins.

mmksparbud · Dec 7, 2019

Lazarus Short said:
But, is the Second Death the death of those being refined in the LoF...or is it the death of Death? Since my Bible states that Death will be the last enemy to be defeated, I lean to the latter, especially since the Second Death is declared right after Death and Hell [hades or the grave is a better rendering] are tossed into the LoF. See the Revelation 20:14.

EDIT: The inescapable implication of Death being defeated [see First Corinthians 15:26] as the last enemy, is that no one can thereafter be dead and/or in Hell. Deny it all you care to, it is right there in front of you.

It is the death of death---with the death of Satan and every sinner---the reason for death is eliminated. No more sin, no more death.

Shrewd Manager · Dec 7, 2019

Rick Otto said:
LOL, let's just say for the moment I'm simmering instead of boiling.
I'm part German so I'm drawn to "sturm & drang" extremes especially re: purity and absoluteness of definitions. But I'm also part Cherokee & French so I can see, hear, & speak metaphor (think art & music). And therefore sympathetic to Mercy trumping justice. The paradox is the tension between perfect forgiveness & perfect justice as I see it.
I am yet able to suspend all that to consider the entire affair on a different level, or in a different sense. Even if not presented so consciously, it may serve a soteriological point about ourselves individually rather than collectively or we could say it speaks to our individual experiences as members of a group (unbelievers/believers)

Is there a difference in the results of German and Cherokee/ French applications? May I suggest there shouldn't be. Look at man's criminal justice system, we build in various principles of sentencing, namely punishment/ retribution, deterrence (specific and general), rehabilitation etc
Sentencing Principles, Purposes, Factors | Sentencing Council

If God's justice system isn't better than man's then there's a problem with one's theology. God's justice is condign, based on 'as ye sow so shall ye reap'. God has the power to utterly destroy or totally redeem. He is never short on information and never judges unrighteously. Moreover, He's merciful. Also, our God is one, meaning at least that His attributes are never in tension, they are all aspects of His commitment to save our sorry hides, for He is love.

So the word used for 'punishment' throughout the NT is kolasis (correction) not timoreisis (retribution). The object is always to repair, to save those condemned by the disease of the world through the first Adam. How? By utterly destroying evil and delivering the man from the bonds of the flesh. By what method? Jesus Christ and the gospel as undoing Adam1, reconciling the world to God and delivering a message of good news for all, followed by personal baptism with the holy fire that consumes evil and refines away the dross. Ultimately, that holy fire immersion is applied to all unbelievers. Purification and sanctification in the superabundant grace of God.

Look at the judges in the OT. The focus is always on restoration, jubilee-style. The judges like Gideon and Samson were highly imperfect men who were yet the saviours of Israel. Back then, when the judge came to town, the widow whose house had been devoured by scribes would get to plead her case and have their ill-gotten gains restored to her. Restorative justice, after the destruction comes restoration. The narrative pattern of the Bible, it's everywhere.

Unfortunately our modern western lenses have us default to a particular Romanised mindset of God the harsh magistrate. But the Biblical tradition sets the judge as a wise arbiter who restores lives and property. (These days if a family court custody judgment bisects the baby, it's considered a pretty good outcome!)

Condign justice is experienced as the pain of tearing away habitual sin. The fire of humiliation we experience in refusing to let go of pride, for example. But the object is always to save - that's how divine justice and mercy are aligned, and not in tension. So He can utterly destroy in order to totally redeem. Isn't this indeed the message of the cross?

Skidder · Dec 7, 2019

Saint Steven said:
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Correct, Christ died for all, and that is why the veil was torn open for all, the partition between mankind and God is down, but not everyone has passed through His veil (His flesh). We should never separate the body and blood from Christ. They are His body and blood. His body is the bread of LIFE, and the only way to partake of His body and blood is to pass through the veil HIS DEATH. And that only happens by faith in Christ.

John 6:51
I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

This verse also validates the veil was torn open FOR ALL, but they still have to pass through to PARTAKE of HIS BODY. Notice how it says He gave his body for the life of the world, but that doesn't mean everyone will choose to partake...

The Gospel is the power of God UNTO salvation EVERYDAY, both from the penalty of sin and the everyday power of sin. Reconciled in the body of His flesh through death we are partakers of the BREAD OF LIFE. The same bread of life that walked among us is the same bread of life that took the chastisement for our peace. The same one that suffered a brutal death for our sins is the same body was buried, saw no decay, and was raised on the third! YES, this is the same bread of life that ascended on high and set the captives free!! The LIVING BREAD that shed His life giving blood for the sins of the world!! Saved, sanctified, justified, redeemed, forgiven, set apart, and made holy in the sight of our FATHER only through the body and blood of Christ!!

And because we do not separate the body and blood of from Christ, REDEMPTION through His blood THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS is only found IN CHRIST. We have to be IN CHRIST to be partakers of His body and blood. Christ is not separate from His sacrifice because HE HIMSELF IS THE SACRIFICE! No Jesus, NO REDEMPTION. Only IN CHRIST is there forgiveness of sins. Christ is the answer, HE is the propitiation because his body saw no decay, and we were reconciled in that same body that ascended on high!! And that's why redemption is not separate from the person of Jesus Christ. And the moment we believe in the one who died for our sins, we pass through the veil... reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, washed in His blood, and raised and seated with Christ in the heavenlies!!!

Grace and Peace...

BEWARE OF UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION

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simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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Through him, in all things, more than conquerors.

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