Definition of Science/Truth

yeshuaslavejeff said:

No.

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yeshuaslavejeff said:

No.

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MrsFoundit said:

I am new here so .

How do you define science? How do you define truth?

I am asking in Creationism because responses from people who accept a direct supernatural creation of life as we know it would be particularly welcome. I am not seeking debate about the definitions, more, if possible a collection of ideas about this.

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Woke said:

I'll comment on Christian truth, and how it relates to biblical truths or errors taught in religions, along with how this affects a person's standing before God. All Christian religions I've heard teach the Bible claim they know the absolute truth about certain biblical concepts that they could not possibly know the absolute truth about. Yet most group members, not just their teachers inside these religions, insist their view is correct; and worse most religions claim it is necessary to believe their teachings about some particularly important biblical topics, in order to be a Christian.

Topics such as:

1. Holy Spirit is a third person forming a collaborative three person God. It's impossible to prove that as the that statement is not in scripture. My personal belief is Holy Spirit is part of the nature of Jesus, and part of the nature of his Father. So I believe it is only God because it is part of both their natures, and definitely is not a third person. I base my belief on Revelation 5:6 and other scriptures. "Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which represent the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth."

2. Point two. Most of these religions teach people will be tortured in fire forever who don't believe in Christ. A minority of these religions teach scriptures claiming that are figurative. Whether it happens or not is dependent on whether Christ's words about that are meant to be taken figuratively or literally. Since many of Christ's words were figurative it cannot be definitively proven either way, because many of his words were also to be literally understood.

Most Christians believe that a true Christian must know the correct interpretation of such things. Therefore, I believe most, and maybe every Christian religion to be teaching ideologies that are biblically skewed. To say it another way all religions I know about I consider apostate. And yet God uses these apostate religions to acquaint the world with himself, through the scriptures these religions spread, even though they have some skewed ideologies about Christ's church's relationship to understanding scriptures. Christ chooses individuals inside these religious groups to become part of his church, and only then, through his Holy Spirit, does Christ inform his church about what he wants them to believe is practicing true Christianity.

To say Christ will kill Christians forever based on how they interpret Hell-Fire, or to say he will punish them if they believe or don't believe Holy Spirit is a third person, smears Christ's name in my opinion. How so? Let me ask, would you torture someone forever for one of those reasons?

So, what is Christian TRUTH about accepting biblical interpretations, concerning the points I raised? Is it true that a correct understanding of one or two of those beliefs is required to be a Christian? Or is it true one can have incorrect beliefs about one or more of those matters and be a part of Christ's church? All religions I have heard teach appear, to me, to be teaching the first idea, that all true Christians must believe their teaching about those things. I believe that idea is Christian apostasy.

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Woke said:

I'm glad that you responded, because your position illustrates my point. The import of my comment is in the post I made right above addressing you the first time. In it I stated:

"Without even reading the other comments I can guess that you will see my point played out by commenters on a thread discussion like this. There will be those who deny God, they say because of science. But that's a lie, even if they lie to themselves. Because it is impossible to prove God nonexistent. They deny him out of choice.

Others will rally to God's defense. Thus here you will see how God is separating people. And more profoundly you will see why God is separating people. WHY IT'S BY THEIR CHOICE."

I wrote that entire post prior to reading any comment except the opening comment on this thread. Then after writing it I went back to skim read all comments up to and including yours. Yours appeared to me to be the only comment that definitely argued against the truth of the Bible, and therefore the existence of a biblical god. This response to my comment further illustrates my point that some people out of choice will argue against God's existence simply as a matter of their own will.

Let me further explain. In your original comment you stated: ["Example Bible the sun and moon are created lights to give light on the earth. Stars are also created lights that also give light, they are assigned a course/circuit that they travel over the earth. As the sun and moon also have a circuit or course that they travel over the earth."]

You made that comment to support your assertion that the Bible contradicts what science has discovered. You had to have formed your assumption from the account of creation in Genesis, where the creation account is formed. Now after you read what I stated in a comment, which I will repeat below this statement, you evidently believed you cannot adequately defend your previous claim based on the biblical account of creation. So instead you turned to another account in the Bible, thus attempting to prove a different biblical fallacy (in your mind), which you assert as unscientific. You took that position only after reading my statement here:

[" With regard to the relationship of the sun, moon, and stars to humans living on Earth the Genesis account can be interpreted as accurate. It would only be inaccurate if humans lived on another planet, away from our sun and moon. Just because God defines those things as providing light, and sources to measure time by, doesn't mean it states that's the only purpose they serve. And the Bible doesn't claim the sun and stars rotate the Earth at all. On one hand your interpretation is too restrictive, and in your other hand it goes beyond what the biblical words state,"]


My point is that if your first point had any logical merit at all you would have been able to defend it with logical reason. Because you didn't even attempt to do so, proves my point that those who do not believe in God do not because they choose not to believe in God. Thus, my second main point is suggested by your behavior, that God is separating people on that basis; and because he is using choice to separate people he has no intention to reveal himself to the worldwide population.

Since you added another argument (your argument about the sun stopping) let me briefly address that before leaving. Many people have been contacted miraculously by God, not just those named in the Bible. Not only does the Bible claim that people share such experiences, I personally have had such experiences, and so can speak to them accurately. Because you speak against the existence of a biblical God I know you have not. Therefore, your comments about them are based on assumptions about them, not observable events.

God communicates in ways that are superior to human communication. He sometimes enters into the minds of people and takes them in dreams to actual future events, not some vague hazy dreams that coincidentally mirror future events, but instead God takes them to places that are the future events, which they experience in exact detail. God can also present real objects to some people he desires to present those things to, objects that exist in dimensions we don't exist in, and so these objects defy natural scientific laws in our world, because they are from another world. Bible characters have experienced both of those things. I have experienced both of those things. If you don't believe us, your denial, like I previously said, is because you choose not to.

Personally I have never read that Bible characters, like Jesus, who experienced the type of supernatural events I speak of were considered crazy by anyone in their day or in our day. If they were considered mentally deficient then why is that not common knowledge? I also never read that Jesus or other biblical characters experiencing supernatural events were lying. If many people consider that they were then why don't they write about it?

So my original statement that those who don't believe us don't believe out of choice is based on facts that are observably relevant to my statements. A scientific process has been applied to reach my conclusions. And what is science but to discover truths through events that are observably relevant. Observing humanity's response to our testimonials shows that humans believe or do not believe our testimonies out of choice. They don't call us crazy. They don't say we are lying. They instead choose to believe or choose not to believe. Their choice is what God uses to separate them. Because the reason for their choice is born out of desire, more than it is facts. It is impossible to prove God does not exist. No one can do that. What can be proven about God through observation is what people want. Some people have a more scientifically compelling reason to believe in God because they have seen his miracles. But most of the people who experience God's miracles already believed in him. So maybe he contacts them more for your benefit than theirs.

John 3:16-18

" 16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

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Cis.jd said:

These common born agains who rep themselves to be "on god's side and you are not" more-so confuse stubbornness with spiritual eyesight. If your views are not only refuted by facts but just by plain reason, then you don't have any spiritual eyesight.

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MrsFoundit said:

Both were presented, but neither were defined.

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MrsFoundit said:

This could also be hindering progress in science itself.

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d taylor said:

Why do you reject Gods creation as described in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. But instead believe sciences lies about Gods creation over the truth of the witness of the Bible. And why limit your creation descriptions to just Genesis 1. Do you not believe God when He says His sun He created travels a circuit from one end of heaven to the other. Which is seen everyday (when it is not cloudy) the sun moving over the earth. When have you seen the earth move around a stationary sun. I never have

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Aussie Pete said:

Feel free to point out where my statements may be refuted by facts and/or reason. I do not expect "reason" to line up with God's word. Neither does God.

"The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14

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Woke said:

You seem to have totally missed the meaning of my comments. I never made the statement you claim I did.

But to answer your current question, I have never seen the Earth travel around the sun. From the ground it only looks like the sun moving. I never saw the Earth move anywhere, and neither have you.

I already addressed your question about the stationery sun, or at least one that appeared stationery TO THAT LIMITED POPULATION OF PEOPLE.

Since it does LOOKS LIKE the sun is moving around the Earth, as it actually moves across the sky, then wouldn't it make sense that a god who CAN MAKE people see the future, and see things in dimensions we don't live in, the biblical heavens, have made that select group of people see the sun, in their minds, as if it stood still and lit up the sky for extended daylight, even if the planet Earth was still rotating the sun, as it always does?

Let's go further. How did Jesus walk on water? Who knows. Did he miraculously materialize some clear plastic or glass below his steps to support him? Or was he suspended in the air? Maybe if you can figure that out you can also know how the sun stopped. I don't attempt to know things I can't at this time. Fact is God does things you can't figure out whether you believe in him or not. One reason he has others tell you about those things they saw is to give you a chance to believe or not. That was my point, nothing more. My point had nothing to do with the Earth's or the sun's travels. That's a point you made, not me. I just alluded to your point.

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d taylor said:

I believe it is you who did not understand my original post.

If you do not believe the full account of the Bibles testimony about Gods creation because your trust in science, so be it.

Why did you mention planets in one of your post to me. You will never find in the Bible God creating planets. In Genesis 1 the full account of Gods creation heaven and earth planets are not listed as being part of Gods creative acts in Genesis 1.

Paul does not list (1 Corinthians 15) planets as being part of the heavenly/celestial bodies just the sun, moon and stars. Because saturn, venus, jupiter, etc.. (note the pagan names given by science) and not the Biblical names given by God. These so called science planets, are stars created by God.

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Woke said:

Again you are claiming I believe or said things I don't, and never said. Your assertions about what you claim I believe are of very little importance to me.

And if you feel I presented a mischaracterization of something you said, but believe you had something worthwhile to share with this group, then restate your point. What is it you are teaching?

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d taylor said:

The Bible gives the true account about Gods creation. Science gives lies about Gods creation.

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