Was Jesus born in September?

Neogaia777

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It was in the fall, not winter, the date was set to celebrate it on December 25, to combine the celebration of Jesus birth, (which the early Christians did not even do or celebrate), anyway, the date was set at December 25th (around or after 300 AD) to combine the date of that celebration, with the pagan "Saturnalia", or the worship of the literal sun or god of the sun... To "christianize" the Saturnalia, etc... And to get people of pagan religions to be in and with and involved and included in the churches, etc... The "Christmas tree" is also very pagan and is of some very pagan roots as well...

The Magi from the east did not bring gifts to Jesus until he was about two years old... They were not there at his birth...

The Easter bunny and eggs etc, and the things we do around or at Easter, were all about combining or "christianizing" another or other pagan holiday's surrounding fertility gods celebrations in false or pagan religions, with the day of the resurrection of our Lord, and the Jewish Passover, which is for the most part the right day or days, but is a serious pollution of what is really supposed to being celebrated and observed on that or those days, which in it's pure form, or as observing the days of the death burial and resurrection of our Lord, or for the Jews, Passover, that the early Christians and Jews pretty much did do on the those days... Just without all the pagan stuff, like bunnies and eggs, and Easter baskets, etc...

"Nor-easter", or something like that was the name of the pagans gods holiday worshiping their fertility gods on that or those days, if I remember correctly, etc... Or we got our word "Easter" from the pagan holiday word at least...

Many of our holidays and many of "the things involved in the celebrations surrounding them", have very pagan roots, and come from pagan holidays/rituals/observances and dates, due to the church that came after or around 300 AD supposedly "christianizing" them, etc...

And Christmas and Easter are some of them, especially Christmas, etc...

God Bless!
 
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ewq1938

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The temperature in Jerusalem in December at night is in the mid 40's F. That's cold but not impossible to sleep outside with a fire and lots of blankets etc. So, the argument about animals being in the fields isn't valid since the day time temp is in the mid 50's f on average.

Average Weather in December in Jerusalem, Israel - Weather Spark
 
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Neogaia777

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It was in the fall, not winter, the date was set to celebrate it on December 25, to combine the celebration of Jesus birth, (which the early Christians did not even do or celebrate), anyway, the date was set at December 25th (around or after 300 AD) to combine the date of that celebration, with the pagan "Saturnalia", or the worship of the literal sun or god of the sun... To "christianize" the Saturnalia, etc... And to get people of pagan religions to be in and with and involved and included in the churches, etc... The "Christmas tree" is also very pagan and is of some very pagan roots as well...

The Magi from the east did not bring gifts to Jesus until he was about two years old... They were not there at his birth...

The Easter bunny and eggs etc, and the things we do around or at Easter, were all about combining or "christianizing" another or other pagan holiday's surrounding fertility gods celebrations in false or pagan religions, with the day of the resurrection of our Lord, and the Jewish Passover, which is for the most part the right day or days, but is a serious pollution of what is really supposed to being celebrated and observed on that or those days, which in it's pure form, or as observing the days of the death burial and resurrection of our Lord, or for the Jews, Passover, that the early Christians and Jews pretty much did do on the those days... Just without all the pagan stuff, like bunnies and eggs, and Easter baskets, etc...

"Nor-easter", or something like that was the name of the pagans gods holiday worshiping their fertility gods on that or those days, if I remember correctly, etc... Or we got our word "Easter" from the pagan holiday word at least...

Many of our holidays and many of "the things involved in the celebrations surrounding them", have very pagan roots, and come from pagan holidays/rituals/observances and dates, due to the church that came after or around 300 AD supposedly "christianizing" them, etc...

And Christmas and Easter are some of them, especially Christmas, etc...

God Bless!
I used to be a JW for a little while a long, long time ago, and while I think they have "a lot of things wrong" (as I have discovered now or by now, etc), "a lot of things wrong", etc, one thing they were very, very right about, was all their research into the all the pagan roots and natures of many of our modern day holidays that we celebrate and/or observe now, etc...

That was one thing, or one subject they had absolutely right, etc...

One of the few though, etc...

God Bless!
 
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DamianWarS

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The Magi rode on camels and donkeys to the manger
Better double check that one. Where navitity scenes favour the immediate arrival of the Maji this is unlikely the case. Consider the ages of boys that Herod targeted gives us a hint of the age of Jesus when they arrived. I'm sure Joseph immediately started looking for better accommodations as soon as he was able.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Hi jack,

No problem. When I read it, it just seemed odd that it used the exact same words in describing the likelihood of Joseph and Mary journeying to Bethlehem. Perhaps they got their information from the same source that you got it from.

I'm not sure that they correctly represent the problem. I'm not sure that in ancient times people did move far away from their ancestral home as much as we might think, based on today's mobility. They describe the effort as total chaos, but I strongly doubt it.

The census, much like ours today, is not a one day in and done operation. It isn't even a one week operation. The total census of the United States today takes several months and that's with all the high speed computers. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the Roman census in question likely took several months and was likely done in sections of the Roman world of that day. So, for example, the census takers in Bethlehem, and the surrounding area of Judea, may have been settled in for a month or so and the people that needed to return would come anytime within that time period to register. So it wouldn't be like everyone hit the road on the same day like we see on Thanksgiving weekend. Then the census takers might move to a different area for another month or so until the entire Roman empire was covered.

The journey from Nazareth to Bethlehem would only take about 5-7 days, even going slow to allow for Mary's condition. It's about 150 Km. As I pointed out in my previous post, there were several occasions for which the Jews traveled fairly great distances to be in Jerusalem for various events.

God bless,
In Christ, ted
if you read between the lines, perhaps also Joseph "fled" Nazareth and the growing scandal there, from all those who could not accept Mary's supernatural conception? He returned to the house of his father & family (and, tangentially but separately, Jesus was born in the "garage / basement" cave under the house wherein the animals were kept) ?
 
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dqhall

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If we are to believe the birth narrative that the shepherds were "with their flocks in the fields by night" then this enables us to place the birth within a few weeks. Shepherds corraled their sheep at night. The corrals were simply low walls of rough fieldstone. The gate was just a gap in the wall across which the shepherd would lay his bedroll. This was not done in lambing season in order to prevent newborn lambs from being trampled and injured in the crowded corral. This would put the birth in the early spring in late March or early April.


In addition there is a huge amount of misinformation our Biblical understandings of the nativity story:

Wise men? ---- not biblical

Kings? --- not biblical

Magi? --- biblical, priests of the Zoroastrian religion

Three of them? --- not biblical

Came on camels? --- not biblical

Worldwide census? --- not historical, census in Galilee only

In ancestral home? --- biblical but not historical

Bethlehem? --- biblical but not likely

Nazareth? --- not biblical but probably

In a stable? --- not biblical

In a cave? --- not biblical

Laid in a manger? --- biblical

Animals present? --- not biblical

Shepherds in fields by night? --- only in lambing time in early spring

Slaughter of the innocents? --- biblical but likely not historical

Flight into Egypt? --- biblical but likely not historical

4 to 6 BC? --- according to Matthew

AD 6? --- according to Luke

Virgin birth? --- Paul said it was natural, Mark and John ignore it

Ever virgin? --- not biblical, Jesus had four brothers and at least two sisters
Shepherds had to wander long distances from town in order to find pasture for their sheep. In doing so, they could have been further from town and not sleeping with a roof over their head any time of the year.
 
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dqhall

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There is no record of a comprehensive census of the entire (Roman) world. In those days a census was much different than those of today. In Italy periodic censuses were ordered to enroll all men of military age but this happened only in Italy. Elsewhere in the Empire a census had a quite different purpose --- it was to enroll the value of land and/or business assets for the purpose of taxation. Such a census did not require that people return to their ancient home town. Can you just imagine the massive dislocation that would entail? The Romans were a very practical people and the census was not focused on people at all. The census dealt with land and business in place for the purpose of taxation and likely involved an inspection of the property.
We have an incomplete record of Judean provincial taxes under Herod. Herod was a client king subject to Rome. He built the temple in Jerusalem, palaces and the artificial harbor at Caesarea. There were centurions in Israel during Jesus’ day. That required taxes. The publicans used to bid for tax collection contracts. I read there were customs taxes on goods transported from one province to another. A poll tax, that is for each man, might or might not have been required. Due to lack of records, the exact Judean situation at the time of Jesus’ birth is difficult to prove.
 
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AlexDTX

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That is what I read many people think. Clearly he was not born in late December. The Bible, which gives us no information about the weather in Bethlehem, is clear that shepherds were at the manger with their sheep. Mary rode on a donkey. The Magi rode on camels and donkeys to the manger. Knowing all this, is it likely Jesus was born in the late summer or early fall?

Of course, no one knows but God. Christmas was not a holiday that God wanted anyone to celebrate. Passover, later called Easter, is the only holiday the world was to celebrate.

That being said, I have always leaned towards the Feast of Tabernacles in the Fall. No room in the Inn would be accounted for by the overflow of pilgrims coming to Jerusalem at the same time Caesar imposed his tax. Also, tabernacle is a symbol of our mortal bodies, as used by Peter and Paul stating that the time of their death drew near when they would shed the tabernacle of their bodies. A fitting time for the Spirit of the Word to clothe himself with mortality. And, according to Zachariah, during the reign of Christ on Earth the unregenerate will have to come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles, or be deprived of rain for growing their crops.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Of course, no one knows but God. Christmas was not a holiday that God wanted anyone to celebrate. Passover, later called Easter, is the only holiday the world was to celebrate.

That being said, I have always leaned towards the Feast of Tabernacles in the Fall. No room in the Inn would be accounted for by the overflow of pilgrims coming to Jerusalem at the same time Caesar imposed his tax. Also, tabernacle is a symbol of our mortal bodies, as used by Peter and Paul stating that the time of their death drew near when they would shed the tabernacle of their bodies. A fitting time for the Spirit of the Word to clothe himself with mortality. And, according to Zachariah, during the reign of Christ on Earth the unregenerate will have to come to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles, or be deprived of rain for growing their crops.
"no room in the inn" is modern English, un-inspired

the original Greek indicates that the Holy Family returned to Joseph's family house, and were forced to stay in the "basement garage" cave under the house where they stored everything including the animals

a more rigid, mechanical, one-word-for-one-word translation into English would be:

Luke 2:7
And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the guest room.

Joseph's family was gathering back at their ancestral house in Bethlehem, and amidst the family reunion, they ran out of room for everyone:

NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible

2:7 manger. A feeding trough for domestic animals; people sometimes kept animals in caves by [or under] the house...Luke does not specify a cave as the place of the manger, but the tradition that Jesus was born in a cave is early, information apparently already circulating in Bethlehem by the early second century.​


NIV First-Century Study Bible

Word Study: Manger
phatnē φάτνη
Luke 2:7

A manger was a feeding trough, typically made of stone, and was used to hold water. Mary and Joseph appear to have found refuge in the lower level of a house or in a cave [under the house], both of which were common places for animal care. Though simple, this was not insulting.

Word Study: Guest room
katalyma καταλύμα
Luke 22:11

This is the same Greek word Luke used when he said Mary and Joseph could find no “guest room” (2:7). This gives the book of Luke a kind of literary frame. Jesus had finally found a “guest room” where he could celebrate his final meal before his death.​
 
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Redwingfan9

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That is what I read many people think. Clearly he was not born in late December. The Bible, which gives us no information about the weather in Bethlehem, is clear that shepherds were at the manger with their sheep. Mary rode on a donkey. The Magi rode on camels and donkeys to the manger. Knowing all this, is it likely Jesus was born in the late summer or early fall?
This is one of the arguments I've made woth regards to xmas being a lie. Jesus wasn't born on December 25th, he was born in the fall, be it September or October. We know his ministry was 3.5 years and that a Jew couldn't become a rabbi until he was 30. We also know he was crucified at passover, which is in spring. As such he was born in fall.

Other evidence is found in the shepherds watching over their flocks by night. That wouldn't have happened in the winter because it's too cold then. In winter the flocks were brought into the house, in the first floor area where Jesus was born. During spring, fall and summer flocks would have been kept outside being watched by a shepherd because it was warm enough not to bring them in.
 
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Norbert L

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That is what I read many people think. Clearly he was not born in late December. The Bible, which gives us no information about the weather in Bethlehem, is clear that shepherds were at the manger with their sheep. Mary rode on a donkey. The Magi rode on camels and donkeys to the manger. Knowing all this, is it likely Jesus was born in the late summer or early fall?
There are other methods which produce a date for Christ's birth too. They're a little harder to understand but are rational enough that they appear in Christian literature. That doesn't mean they are widely accepted but rational enough to be given consideration.

According to some Christian research, there is a theory that arrives at Tishri 1 which is September 11, 3 BC as the date of Christ's birth. By using the unusual arrangement of the constellations mentioned in Revelation 12, that information can be put into an astronomy program which will track the conjunctions of stars over time backwards to arrive at specific dates for certain centuries. What makes Tishri 1 interesting for some Christians is its' use during the OT times of announcing the arrival of a new king in Israel.

What made it discussion worthy is Herod's death in 4 BC is also debatable because another view that has him dying at 1 BC.

I find it all rather fascinating.
 
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AlexDTX

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"no room in the inn" is modern English, un-inspired

the original Greek indicates that the Holy Family returned to Joseph's family house, and were forced to stay in the "basement garage" cave under the house where they stored everything including the animals

a more rigid, mechanical, one-word-for-one-word translation into English would be:

Luke 2:7
And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the guest room.

Joseph's family was gathering back at their ancestral house in Bethlehem, and amidst the family reunion, they ran out of room for everyone:

NIV Cultural Backgrounds Study Bible

2:7 manger. A feeding trough for domestic animals; people sometimes kept animals in caves by [or under] the house...Luke does not specify a cave as the place of the manger, but the tradition that Jesus was born in a cave is early, information apparently already circulating in Bethlehem by the early second century.​


NIV First-Century Study Bible

Word Study: Manger
phatnē φάτνη
Luke 2:7

A manger was a feeding trough, typically made of stone, and was used to hold water. Mary and Joseph appear to have found refuge in the lower level of a house or in a cave [under the house], both of which were common places for animal care. Though simple, this was not insulting.

Word Study: Guest room
katalyma καταλύμα
Luke 22:11

This is the same Greek word Luke used when he said Mary and Joseph could find no “guest room” (2:7). This gives the book of Luke a kind of literary frame. Jesus had finally found a “guest room” where he could celebrate his final meal before his death.​
Your response is caviler. Who cares about that minor detail? How about commenting on the point? That is, the possibility that they came during the Feast of Tabernacles?
 
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All4Christ

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It was in the fall, not winter, the date was set to celebrate it on December 25, to combine the celebration of Jesus birth, (which the early Christians did not even do or celebrate), anyway, the date was set at December 25th (around or after 300 AD) to combine the date of that celebration, with the pagan "Saturnalia", or the worship of the literal sun or god of the sun... To "christianize" the Saturnalia, etc... And to get people of pagan religions to be in and with and involved and included in the churches, etc... The "Christmas tree" is also very pagan and is of some very pagan roots as well...

The Magi from the east did not bring gifts to Jesus until he was about two years old... They were not there at his birth...

The Easter bunny and eggs etc, and the things we do around or at Easter, were all about combining or "christianizing" another or other pagan holiday's surrounding fertility gods celebrations in false or pagan religions, with the day of the resurrection of our Lord, and the Jewish Passover, which is for the most part the right day or days, but is a serious pollution of what is really supposed to being celebrated and observed on that or those days, which in it's pure form, or as observing the days of the death burial and resurrection of our Lord, or for the Jews, Passover, that the early Christians and Jews pretty much did do on the those days... Just without all the pagan stuff, like bunnies and eggs, and Easter baskets, etc...

"Nor-easter", or something like that was the name of the pagans gods holiday worshiping their fertility gods on that or those days, if I remember correctly, etc... Or we got our word "Easter" from the pagan holiday word at least...

Many of our holidays and many of "the things involved in the celebrations surrounding them", have very pagan roots, and come from pagan holidays/rituals/observances and dates, due to the church that came after or around 300 AD supposedly "christianizing" them, etc...

And Christmas and Easter are some of them, especially Christmas, etc...
God Bless!
I recommend looking at the Venerable Bede for some information as to the origin of the name Easter. Look into the quartodecimian controversy as well.

In regards to the Nativity, check out Sextus Julius Africanus in the second century for the calculation of Jesus’ birth being December 25, based on the date for the annunciation on March 25. Also, check out the origin of January 7th as the Nativity (Christmas) in the East, as well as the origins of Theophany /Epiphany. It originally was a dual feast day.

Honestly though, there isn’t much “Christian” significant to Easter Bunnies :) Eggs were used in pagan traditions but there also are Christian traditions surrounding it (look at the tradition of St Mary Magdalene and the red egg) and even Jewish traditions, but bunnies....not so much. Certainly some common traditions aren’t from Christian roots.
 
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In addition there is a huge amount of misinformation
One story is that they were there to pay their taxes. Although the Bible says they were there for a census. So they may or may not have actually been paying taxes. One suggestion is that they were there after the harvest so they would have money to pay their taxes.
 
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"In the cycle of the Jewish year, the six months from Nissan to Tishrei comprise the “Season of the Sun,” and the Tishrei to Nissan months are our “Season of Rains.”
Winter: The Season of Rains - The Meaningful Life Center
-

Song of Solomon 2:11, Ezra 10:9-13
show that winter was a rainy season.

December is a cold, rainy season in Judea.
The shepherds brought their flocks in from
the fields and mountains to be corralled by
mid-October at the latest. (Luke 2:8)

Nowhere does Scripture advocate celebrating
Christ’s birthday—or any birthday. Christian
usage in general was to celebrate [the death]
of remarkable persons rather than their birth.
 
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The temperature in Jerusalem in December at night is in the mid 40's F. That's cold but not impossible to sleep outside with a fire and lots of blankets etc. So, the argument about animals being in the fields isn't valid since the day time temp is in the mid 50's f on average.

Average Weather in December in Jerusalem, Israel - Weather Spark


Rainfall could be a factor, not just cold.

Average Weather in December in Jerusalem, Israel - Weather Spark

"The month of December in Jerusalem experiences essentially constant cloud cover...

Precipitation
A wet day is one with at least 0.04 inches of liquid or liquid-equivalent precipitation. In Jerusalem, the chance of a wet day over the course of December is gradually increasing, starting the month at 15% and ending it at 18%.

Rainfall

To show variation within the month and not just the monthly total, we show the rainfall accumulated over a sliding 31-day period centered around each day.

The average sliding 31-day rainfall during December in Jerusalem is increasing, starting the month at 1.2 inches, when it rarely exceeds 3.1 inches or falls below 0.1 inches, and ending the month at 1.7 inches, when it rarely exceeds 3.5 inches or falls below 0.3 inches."
 
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