Will people go to Hell for worshipping on Sunday?

Erik Nelson said:

God is always invisible & transcendent in heaven (John 1:18), so any sort of Messenger of God visible & immanent on earth is a distinct entity (John 1:14)

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True.

God the Father is seated upon the throne in heaven and worshiped day and night.



JLB

JLB777 said:

Yes. Agreed.


The Father is YHWH

The Son is YHWH.




JLB

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except the Father is not the Son

are you your dad? Is your son you?

language has meaning, and the "Father" is not the "Son" (although they are closely related)

Erik Nelson said:

not so fast

Just because an entity carries the Name or Names or Titles of God does not make them God

God gave Jesus His Name (John 17:11)

The Angel / Messenger of God carried God's Name with authority over sins as it led the Israelites from Egypt (Exodus 23:21)

But the Messenger of God is not God Himself, even when imbued with much of God's own authority

God is always invisible & transcendent in heaven (John 1:18), so any sort of Messenger of God visible & immanent on earth is a distinct entity (John 1:14)

An ambassador speaks with authority & power, but is not technically the actual nation sending them

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Again, a question for you.


Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

• Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.

Will the Son or the Father come with all the saints on the Day of the Lord ?



JLB

Erik Nelson said:

except the Father is not the Son

are you your dad? Is your son you?

language has meaning, and the "Father" is not the "Son" (although they are closely related)

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We have already established this fact.


Again, the Son is not the Father.



JLB

JLB777 said:

That would be the Son of God, before He became flesh.





JLB

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yes, almost, I understand the term "Son" only applies to God's Word incarnate in Jesus, "I said, 'I am the Son of God'" (John 10:36)

pre-incarnations of God's Word:

• angel messenger of God leading Israelites into Wilderness (Exodus 23:21 = Jude 1:5)
• rock of Meribah in Wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4)

may not have been "the Son" per se, but as Scripture says they were the "Lord" "Jesus" "Christ" I wouldn't actually argue much

JLB777 said:

Again, a question for you.


Behold, the day of the Lord is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5

• Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You.

Will the Son or the Father come with all the saints on the Day of the Lord ?



JLB

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what does it say in the original language(s)?

according to YLT, the only Hebrew word actually used is YHWH, not "Lord", "YHWH my Elohim" basically

so those verses describe God, YHWH-Elohim, The Father

(moreover, wasn't Zechariah 14:21 fulfilled the time(s) Jesus cleansed the temple?)

Erik Nelson said:

yes, almost, I understand the term "Son" only applies to God's Word incarnate in Jesus, "I said, 'I am the Son of God'" (John 10:36)

pre-incarnations of God's Word:

• angel messenger of God leading Israelites into Wilderness (Exodus 23:21 = Jude 1:5)
• rock of Meribah in Wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4)

may not have been "the Son" per se, but as Scripture says they were the "Lord" "Jesus" "Christ" I wouldn't actually argue much

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These are all references to the Son -


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1






Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6





The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1






I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
Isaiah 42:12-15






JLB

JLB777 said:

These are all references to the Son -


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1






Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:1-6





The burden of the word of the Lord against Israel. Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him: Zechariah 12:1






I have declared and saved,
I have proclaimed,
And there was no foreign god among you;
Therefore you are My witnesses,”
Says the Lord, “that I am God.
Indeed before the day was, I am He;
And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand;
I work, and who will reverse it?”
Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer,
The Holy One of Israel:
“For your sake I will send to Babylon,
And bring them all down as fugitives—
The Chaldeans, who rejoice in their ships.
I am the Lord, your Holy One,
The Creator of Israel, your King.”
Isaiah 42:12-15






JLB

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well, I don't see how the physical human nature of Jesus of Nazareth, a ~6' bipedal humanoid composed of carbon & water, could possibly pre-exist the creation of all space and time and energy and matter including carbon & water...

whereas obviously the Son's fully divine nature, being the indwelling incarnated Word of God the Father, was pre-existent (John 1:1)

so I would be more comfortable saying those were instances of the pre-incarnate Word of God, and not "Jesus of Nazareth" (who was still obviously fore-known & fore-planned & fore-ordained by Omniscient all-knowing God)

but given Jude 1:5, 1 Corinthians 10:4, John 17:5, I won't over-emphasize the nuance

---

As for Isaiah 42:12-15, remember God alone was originally Israel's sovereign (1 Samuel 8:7)… so again, Christ, like David, was ruler on God's behalf, in God's stead, as God's representative... the ultimate authority & title were still God's, yes?

Erik Nelson said:

well, I don't see how the physical human nature of Jesus of Nazareth, a ~6' bipedal humanoid composed of carbon & water, could possibly pre-exist the creation of all space and time and energy and matter including carbon & water...

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I don’t either.

Erik Nelson said:

whereas obviously the Son's fully divine nature, being the indwelling incarnated Word of God the Father, was pre-existent (John 1:1)

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The Son is the only begotten of the Father.


He was begotten before all things.


He “BECAME” flesh... in Mary’s womb.


I hope you understand the difference.





JLB

Erik Nelson said:

so I would be more comfortable saying those were instances of the pre-incarnate Word of God, and not "Jesus of Nazareth" (who was still obviously fore-known & fore-planned & fore-ordained by Omniscient all-knowing God)

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YHWH = Jesus

The Name above all names.




JLB

JLB777 said:

What is the difference in the teachings of “righteous Judaism” and
Judaism?
I have never heard of “righteous Judaism”.
JLB

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Jesus Savior Messiah King of the Jews is still Jewish.
He born Jewish, raised Jewish, lived Jewish, honoring Jewish Elohim (Yahuweh) - His Father who set apart Jewish Nation for Himself and entrusted Scripture to them, and through them brought Salvation to the world (even to gentiles).

The Apostles all Jewish, with all the permanent disciples of Jesus, at first, including or being those immersed in Jesus' Name, recognizing Jesus as their Messiah, son of the Living Elohim(God).

Who was unrighteous ? Those Jews who rejected Jesus, not being immersed in Him.

Torah is good, when used properly. Righteously. As Yahuweh Says and meant to be.
Not to save someone, but to bring to Christ, to reveal sin, all in Yahuweh's Plan and Purpose, Perfectly.

JLB777 said:

Yes. Agreed.


The Father is YHWH

The Son is YHWH.




JLB

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The Father and son are echad, eternally, they were echad before anything was created.
The Father and son are echad from Genesis thru the Apocalypse, and without end.
They did not become echad - they have always been echad.
The permanent disciples become echad with the son and with the Father, same as Jesus and the Father are echad, as Jesus prayed in John 17, and as noted throughout Scripture.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Jesus Savior Messiah King of the Jews is still Jewish.
He born Jewish, raised Jewish, lived Jewish, honoring Jewish Elohim (Yahuweh) - His Father who set apart Jewish Nation for Himself and entrusted Scripture to them, and through them brought Salvation to the world (even to gentiles).

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and yet He is a High Priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

One who is not subject to the Levitical priesthood.


Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.
Hebrews 7:11-12


For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.


Case Closed!



JLB

Erik Nelson said:

...

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<EN>well, I don't see how the physical human nature of Jesus of Nazareth, a ~6' bipedal humanoid composed of carbon & water, could possibly pre-exist the creation of all space and time and energy and matter including carbon & water...
whereas obviously the Son's fully divine nature, being the indwelling incarnated Word of God the Father, was pre-existent (John 1:1)
so I would be more comfortable saying those were instances of the pre-incarnate Word of God, and not "Jesus of Nazareth" (who was still obviously fore-known & fore-planned & fore-ordained by Omniscient all-knowing God)
but given Jude 1:5, 1 Corinthians 10:4, John 17:5, I won't over-emphasize the nuance
---
As for Isaiah 42:12-15, remember God alone was originally Israel's sovereign (1 Samuel 8:7)… so again, Christ, like David, was ruler on God's behalf, in God's stead, as God's representative... the ultimate authority & title were still God's, yes?<EN>

...

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I can "see how the physical human nature of Jesus of Nazareth, ... could possibly pre-exist the creation of all space and time etc."and energy and matter including carbon & water..."
Are we not talking about the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient God to whom nothing is impossible? Matthew 19:26, Mark 10:27, Luke 18:27.

Closed yes. Understood and obeyed? no. sorry.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

The Father and son are echad, eternally, they were echad before anything was created.
The Father and son are echad from Genesis thru the Apocalypse, and without end.
They did not become echad - they have always been echad.
The permanent disciples become echad with the son and with the Father, same as Jesus and the Father are echad, as Jesus prayed in John 17, and as noted throughout Scripture.

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What is echad.


I speak English.

I don’t use part English and part Hebrew in my posts.


Also I don’t keep Jewish feast days or wear Jewish costumes or eat Jewish food.




JLB

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Closed yes. Understood and obeyed? no. sorry.

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suit yourself.


The law of Moses was nailed to the cross, and abolished in His flesh, in which it was taken out of the way, having given way to the law of Christ.

If you are bent on establishing your own righteousness by keeping the law of Moses, you will be very sad on the Day of Judgement




JLB

JLB777 said:

What is echad.


I speak English.

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15 pages of references in English, possibly ever instance of echad in Scripture :

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

JLB777 said:

Where do you find such a command in the New Testament?

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There is no place anywhere throughout Yahuweh's Kingdom where it is said, written, spoken not instructed to disobey Yahuweh, ever.