Was Jesus born in September?

JackRT

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Ted --- when dealing with sources, I had an interesting experience many years ago. I was accused of plagiarism for a block of text that I did not attribute. After some investigation I found that I was accused of quoting myself under a different name in a different chat room.
 
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Aussie Pete

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That is what I read many people think. Clearly he was not born in late December. The Bible, which gives us no information about the weather in Bethlehem, is clear that shepherds were at the manger with their sheep. Mary rode on a donkey. The Magi rode on camels and donkeys to the manger. Knowing all this, is it likely Jesus was born in the late summer or early fall?
Yes. The current Christmas date was not observed until after 300 AD.
 
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chilehed

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Clearly he was not born in late December.
Sheep were in the fields all year, and people rode donkeys all year. Given that the consensus has always been that he was born in December, and that the earliest Christians said they believed it because it was really true (and not because of a desire to Christanize some pagan observance that didn't even happen on that day), it's clear that he most likely was.
 
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JackRT

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Dionysius Exigius (aka Dennis the Short), a monk from Russia who died about 544, was asked by Pope John I to set out the dates for Easter from the years 527 to 626. It seems that the Pope was keen to produce some order in the celebration of Easter. Dionysius decided to begin with what he considered to be the year of Jesus' birth. He chose the year in which Rome had been founded and determined, from the evidence known to him, that Jesus had been born 753 years later. He did have an error in that because one emperor changed his name during his reign, Dionysius counted him twice.

He was almost certainly acquainted with a suggestion by Hippolytus (170–236) that the date of Jesus' birth was December 25, but the trouble was that Hippolytus had not backed up this claim with sound arguments. Dionysius, however, had just the argument: His contemporaries claimed that God created the earth on March 25. It was inconceivable that the son of God could have been in any way imperfect. Therefore Jesus must have been conceived on March 25. This meant that he must have been born nine months later—December 25. Dionysius also concluded that, as a perfect being, Jesus could not have lived an incomplete life so he must have died on March 25 as well!

December 25 was an auspicious choice. In 274, in Rome, the Emperor Aurelian declared December 25 a civic holiday in celebration of the birth of Mithras, the sun god. By 336, in that same city, Christians countered by celebrating the birth of Jesus, the son of God, on December 25. Christians in Antioch in 375 celebrated the birth of Jesus on January 6. Christians in Alexandria did not begin to celebrate Christmas at all until 430. So until Dionysius came along there was confusion over dates, and debates raged, even over the usefulness of celebrating the birth of Jesus at all. What had been universally important for all Christians—the pre-eminent event—was the celebration of Easter.

When, in 527, he formalized the date of Jesus' birth, Dionysius put Christmas on the map. Jesus was born, he declared, on December 25 in the Roman year 753. Dionysius then suspended time for a few days, declaring January 1, 754—New Year's day in Rome—as the first year in a new era of world history.

With a stroke of ingenuity Dionysius had managed to shift the attention of the church from Easter to Christmas. From this point in time it seemed only logical to celebrate the birth of Jesus before his death. If Jesus' death by crucifixion had made possible salvation for all people everywhere, so the argument went, then his birth was the sign that God was identifying with human kind by taking human form.

But Dionysius made a mistake in his calculations. Perhaps he had never read the gospel account of the birth of Jesus. In Matthew Jesus is said to have been born while Herod was still King (2:1). That would translate into 4 BC (or even earlier) according to the calculations of Dionysius. As a consequence, for Christians the year 2000 is not two thousand years after the birth of Jesus, but more like 2004.

That was not his only mistake. Dionysius followed the convention of his times and, as the Roman calendar moved from the year 753 to 754, he called the latter "year one" of the New World order—anno domini, the year of our Lord. The concept of naught (zero) didn't come into Europe from Arabia and India until about two hundred years later. As a result, centuries end with naught and begin with the digit one. So for us the year 2000 was the end of one millennium but it was not the beginning of the next: that occurred in 2001.

Later, when Pope Gregory tidied up the calendar on 24 February 1582, the calendar lost eleven days. To synchronise the calendar of Dionysius with the movement of the sun, October 4 became October 15, and to avoid having to make further adjustments a leap year was introduced. Pope Gregory must also have known of the mistakes made by Dionysius but all he did was to confirm them, perhaps hoping that no one would notice.

There is one other problem. Bishop Ussher (1581–1656) worked out the precise year of creation as 4004 BC (he knew about Dionysisus getting the date of Jesus birth wrong). But he also advanced the view that the earth had a total life span of six thousand years. In order to come up with this conclusion he based his calculations on all the generations mentioned in the Bible.

In reality we do not know when Jesus was born—neither the year, the month, nor the day. The chronology of our western calendar is based on mythology masquerading as theology. We do well to treat it all with the humour it deserves.

Dionysius Exiguus - Westar Institute
 
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ewq1938

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That is what I read many people think. Clearly he was not born in late December. The Bible, which gives us no information about the weather in Bethlehem, is clear that shepherds were at the manger with their sheep. Mary rode on a donkey. The Magi rode on camels and donkeys to the manger. Knowing all this, is it likely Jesus was born in the late summer or early fall?

Was Jesus actually born in September? | GotQuestions.org

"the theory that Jesus was born in September depends on the timing of John the Baptist’s birth. These biblical facts lay the groundwork: John’s father, a priest named Zechariah, was taking his turn to serve in the temple when the angel Gabriel appeared to him and announced that Elizabeth, Zechariah’s wife, would conceive a son (Luke 1:8–13). After Zechariah returned home, his wife conceived, just as the angel had said (Luke 1:23–24). Gabriel then visited Mary to announce the miraculous conception of Jesus, and this visit came in the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy (Luke 1:26, 36). Another important detail: Zechariah “belonged to the priestly division of Abijah” (Luke 1:5).

Using the above information, the calculations are made thus: the priests in the Abijah division served from June 13—19. Assuming that Elizabeth conceived shortly after Gabriel’s announcement to Zechariah, her sixth month—the month that Gabriel visits Mary—would be December or January. Assuming that Mary conceives shortly after Gabriel’s announcement to her, Jesus would have been born nine months later, i.e., August or September."
 
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mmksparbud

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I always had a thing about His birth when I was a kid that it would have been Oct. 31----just something sneaky that Satan would have had his hand in it---turning the date of the birth of Jesus into a date of honoring witches and the occult, and taking a pagan date and making it His birthday. I could just picture him snickering in the corner on Halloween. Just something perverse he would do! ^_^
 
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GodLovesCats

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I always had a thing about His birth when I was a kid that it would have been Oct. 31 - just something sneaky that Satan would have had his hand in it - turning the date of the birth of Jesus into a date of honoring witches and the occult, and taking a pagan date and making it His birthday. I could just picture him snickering in the corner on Halloween. Just something perverse he would do!

Halloween is a pagan counter-holiday to All Saints Day, which is on November 1. Fun fact: The NFL's New Orleans Saints are named after this holiday because the city was awarded a team on that date.

I read December 25 was originally a pagan holiday before Catholics selected it to celebrate Jesus' birth at a "Christ Mass" but no details explaining it. That makes no sense to me.
 
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Hazelelponi

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The ancients held that all the great prophets died on the day they were conceived.

and oddly, the time of year of Jesus's birth according to the shepards location with the sheep and weather would coincide with Passover or just after.. (sheep and weather say spring birth around the grain harvest)

So when was Jesus conceived?
 
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ewq1938

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Actually the September sign is Libra, but the only relevant astronomy is the Star of Bethlehem.

Virgo (8/23-9/22). I believe Christ was born within the sign of Virgo.
 
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crossnote

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And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years. And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. (Luk 1:7-9)

And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
(Luk 1:36)


Find out when this service before the Lord happened, then figure that John the Baptist was born 9 months after this point and so Jesus was born 15 months from the time of year Zecharias served in the temple.
 
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Hazelelponi

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And they had no child, because that Elisabeth was barren, and they both were now well stricken in years. And it came to pass, that while he executed the priest's office before God in the order of his course, According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord. (Luk 1:7-9)

And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.
(Luk 1:36)


Find out when this service before the Lord happened, then figure that John the Baptist was born 9 months after this point and so Jesus was born 15 months from the time of year Zecharias served in the temple.

A Priest of the Division of Abijah | JerusalemPerspective.com Online

according to this ^^^ we know that Zacharias served one week twice a year, one in spring and one in autumn, but there is no way of knowing either the exact dates of his rotation nor whether the biblical encounter that was mentioned occured in the spring or fall time..

so it can't be pinned down that way..

best we have are the shepards and sheep and that leaves us with a likely spring grain harvest time birth..
 
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Berean
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A Priest of the Division of Abijah | JerusalemPerspective.com Online

according to this ^^^ we know that Zacharias served one week twice a year, one in spring and one in autumn, but there is no way of knowing either the exact dates of his rotation nor whether the biblical encounter that was mentioned occured in the spring or fall time..

so it can't be pinned down that way..

best we have are the shepards and sheep and that leaves us with a likely spring grain harvest time birth..
Not so fast. According to John Gill on the 'course of Abia'. ...

of the course of Abia. The Ethiopic version reads, "in the days of Abia": and it has been the opinion of some, that Zacharias and Abia were two priests, who performed their ministry in succession, one after another; one ministered one time, and another at another time; but such betray their ignorance both of Scripture, and of Jewish affairs. In David's time, there was a division of the sons of Aaron into "twenty four" orders, or courses; and this of Abia was one, and the "eighth" of them; see
1Ch_24:1. The account the Jews (o) give of this matter, and in which they are not agreed, is this,
"says Rab Chama bar Guria, says Rab, Moses ordered for the Israelites eight courses, four from Eleazar, and four from Ithamar; Samuel came and made them "sixteen"; David came and made them twenty four.--It is a tradition, that Moses ordered for the Israelites sixteen courses, eight from Eleazar, and eight from Ithamar; and when the children of Eleazar increased above the children of Ithamar, they divided them, and appointed them twenty four.
The account, as given by Maimonides (p), is as follows:
"Moses, our master, divided the priests into eight courses, four from Eleazar, and four from Ithamar, and so they were until Samuel the prophet; and in the days of Samuel, he and David, the king, divided them into twenty four courses; and over every course one head was appointed, and they went up to Jerusalem to the service of the course every week; and from sabbath to sabbath they changed; one course went out, and another came in, till they finished, and returned again.
Now of these there were but four courses returned from the Babylonish captivity, as appears from Ezr_2:36 and with this the Jewish accounts agree (q),
"The Rabbins teach, that four courses came up from the captivity, Jedaiah, Harim, Pashur, and Immer; the prophets that were among them stood up, and divided them, and appointed four and twenty lots, and put them into a box: Jedaiah came and took his lot, and the lot of his companions, six; Harim came and took his lot, and the lot of his companions, six; and so Pashur and Immer: and so the prophets that were among them taught, that if Jehoiarib, the first course, came up from captivity, he should not drive away Jedaiah out of his place; but Jedaiah should be the principal, and Jehoiarib an appendix to him.
Now, though the course of Abia did not return from captivity, yet its order and name were retained as the rest of the courses, being divided between these four by whom they were supplied; and therefore Zacharias is not said to be of the posterity of Abia, but of his course. To these courses there were added as many stations; and what they were, and their use, may be learnt from what follows (r),
"The former prophets offered four and twenty courses; and to every course there was a station at Jerusalem; consisting of priests, Levites, and Israelites: and when the time came for the course to go up, the priests and Levites went up to Jerusalem, but the Israelites, which were in that course, gathered themselves to their cities, and read in the history of the creation; and the men of the station fasted four days in the week, from the second day, to the fifth.
The sense of which, according to their commentators (s), is, that these stations were substituted in the room of, and represented all Israel; and their business was to give themselves up to divine worship, prayer, and sacrifices; and such of them as were near Jerusalem, when the time of their course came, assisted at the sacrifices; and such as were afar off, betook themselves to the synagogues in their cities, and there fasted, prayed, and read. And so another of their authors (t) says,
"there were twenty and four courses of the priests, and so twenty and four courses of the Levites; and every week the course of the priests and Levites goes to Jerusalem; and the twenty and four stationary men, half of them go thither, and half are left in their houses, and pray over the offerings:
for they had their stationary cities, where these men dwelt (u). Jericho was one: they say (w),
"Jericho was able to produce a complete station itself; but because of dividing the glory to Jerusalem, it furnished out but half an one:
hence you need not wonder to hear of a priest and Levite on the road to Jericho from Jerusalem, as in Luk_10:31 for they say, in the same place, that twenty four thousand, a station consisted of at Jerusalem, and there was half a station at Jericho: as for the heads of the courses of the houses of their fathers,
"there were in a course five, six, seven, eight, nine of them; a course which had five (heads) in it, three offered three days, and two offered four days; a course in which were six, five offered five days, and one offered two days: a course in which were seven, every one offered on his day; a course in which were eight, six offered six days, and two offered one day; a course in which were nine, live offered five days, and four offered two days: and there were some that fixed themselves for ever; and a course that was (or began) on a sabbath day, was always on a sabbath; and that which was at the going out of the sabbath, was always at the going out of the sabbath: and there were some of them that offered at every course: and there were some that cast lots at every course (x).
But to say no more of these courses and stations, I conclude with what Maimonides (y) says of them:
"it is not possible, that a man's offering should be offered up, and he not stand by it; but the offerings of the congregation are the offerings of all Israel; and it is not possible that all Israel should stand, in the court at the time of sacrifice: wherefore the former prophets ordered, that they should chose out of Israel men that were fit, and feared to sin, that they may be the messengers of all Israel to stand by the offerings, and these are called the men of the station; and they divided them into twenty and four stations, according to the number of the courses of the priests and Levites; and at every station one of them was appointed over them all, and he called the head of the station; and every week the men of the station of that week gather together; and such of them as are in Jerusalem, or near to it, go into the temple, with the course of the priests and Levites of that week; and they who are in that station, that are at a distance, when their station comes, they gather together to the synagogue, which is in their place.
Then he goes on to give an account, as before, how often they fast in that week, how many prayers they say, and...
 
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Hazelelponi

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Not so fast. According to John Gill on the 'course of Abia'. ...

of the course of Abia. The Ethiopic version reads, "in the days of Abia": and it has been the opinion of some, that Zacharias and Abia were two priests, who performed their ministry in succession, one after another; one ministered one time, and another at another time; but such betray their ignorance both of Scripture, and of Jewish affairs. In David's time, there was a division of the sons of Aaron into "twenty four" orders, or courses; and this of Abia was one, and the "eighth" of them; see
1Ch_24:1. The account the Jews (o) give of this matter, and in which they are not agreed, is this,
"says Rab Chama bar Guria, says Rab, Moses ordered for the Israelites eight courses, four from Eleazar, and four from Ithamar; Samuel came and made them "sixteen"; David came and made them twenty four.--It is a tradition, that Moses ordered for the Israelites sixteen courses, eight from Eleazar, and eight from Ithamar; and when the children of Eleazar increased above the children of Ithamar, they divided them, and appointed them twenty four.
The account, as given by Maimonides (p), is as follows:
"Moses, our master, divided the priests into eight courses, four from Eleazar, and four from Ithamar, and so they were until Samuel the prophet; and in the days of Samuel, he and David, the king, divided them into twenty four courses; and over every course one head was appointed, and they went up to Jerusalem to the service of the course every week; and from sabbath to sabbath they changed; one course went out, and another came in, till they finished, and returned again.
Now of these there were but four courses returned from the Babylonish captivity, as appears from Ezr_2:36 and with this the Jewish accounts agree (q),
"The Rabbins teach, that four courses came up from the captivity, Jedaiah, Harim, Pashur, and Immer; the prophets that were among them stood up, and divided them, and appointed four and twenty lots, and put them into a box: Jedaiah came and took his lot, and the lot of his companions, six; Harim came and took his lot, and the lot of his companions, six; and so Pashur and Immer: and so the prophets that were among them taught, that if Jehoiarib, the first course, came up from captivity, he should not drive away Jedaiah out of his place; but Jedaiah should be the principal, and Jehoiarib an appendix to him.
Now, though the course of Abia did not return from captivity, yet its order and name were retained as the rest of the courses, being divided between these four by whom they were supplied; and therefore Zacharias is not said to be of the posterity of Abia, but of his course. To these courses there were added as many stations; and what they were, and their use, may be learnt from what follows (r),
"The former prophets offered four and twenty courses; and to every course there was a station at Jerusalem; consisting of priests, Levites, and Israelites: and when the time came for the course to go up, the priests and Levites went up to Jerusalem, but the Israelites, which were in that course, gathered themselves to their cities, and read in the history of the creation; and the men of the station fasted four days in the week, from the second day, to the fifth.
The sense of which, according to their commentators (s), is, that these stations were substituted in the room of, and represented all Israel; and their business was to give themselves up to divine worship, prayer, and sacrifices; and such of them as were near Jerusalem, when the time of their course came, assisted at the sacrifices; and such as were afar off, betook themselves to the synagogues in their cities, and there fasted, prayed, and read. And so another of their authors (t) says,
"there were twenty and four courses of the priests, and so twenty and four courses of the Levites; and every week the course of the priests and Levites goes to Jerusalem; and the twenty and four stationary men, half of them go thither, and half are left in their houses, and pray over the offerings:
for they had their stationary cities, where these men dwelt (u). Jericho was one: they say (w),
"Jericho was able to produce a complete station itself; but because of dividing the glory to Jerusalem, it furnished out but half an one:
hence you need not wonder to hear of a priest and Levite on the road to Jericho from Jerusalem, as in Luk_10:31 for they say, in the same place, that twenty four thousand, a station consisted of at Jerusalem, and there was half a station at Jericho: as for the heads of the courses of the houses of their fathers,
"there were in a course five, six, seven, eight, nine of them; a course which had five (heads) in it, three offered three days, and two offered four days; a course in which were six, five offered five days, and one offered two days: a course in which were seven, every one offered on his day; a course in which were eight, six offered six days, and two offered one day; a course in which were nine, live offered five days, and four offered two days: and there were some that fixed themselves for ever; and a course that was (or began) on a sabbath day, was always on a sabbath; and that which was at the going out of the sabbath, was always at the going out of the sabbath: and there were some of them that offered at every course: and there were some that cast lots at every course (x).
But to say no more of these courses and stations, I conclude with what Maimonides (y) says of them:
"it is not possible, that a man's offering should be offered up, and he not stand by it; but the offerings of the congregation are the offerings of all Israel; and it is not possible that all Israel should stand, in the court at the time of sacrifice: wherefore the former prophets ordered, that they should chose out of Israel men that were fit, and feared to sin, that they may be the messengers of all Israel to stand by the offerings, and these are called the men of the station; and they divided them into twenty and four stations, according to the number of the courses of the priests and Levites; and at every station one of them was appointed over them all, and he called the head of the station; and every week the men of the station of that week gather together; and such of them as are in Jerusalem, or near to it, go into the temple, with the course of the priests and Levites of that week; and they who are in that station, that are at a distance, when their station comes, they gather together to the synagogue, which is in their place.
Then he goes on to give an account, as before, how often they fast in that week, how many prayers they say, and...

I'm a little unclear on what your disagreeing with exactly?

But for more clarity I believe I need sleep, then to re-read both your post and the article to find the area of exact disagreement here.

So on that note I bid you goodnight.. :)
 
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Yekcidmij

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If we are to believe the birth narrative that the shepherds were "with their flocks in the fields by night" then this enables us to place the birth within a few weeks. Shepherds corraled their sheep at night. The corrals were simply low walls of rough fieldstone. The gate was just a gap in the wall across which the shepherd would lay his bedroll. This was not done in lambing season in order to prevent newborn lambs from being trampled and injured in the crowded corral. This would put the birth in the early spring in late March or early April.

Can you give the source for this. I'm aware of some Talmudic references to sheep being in the field in late summer, but I think I recall other references (if pressed, I'll have to see if I can remember where in Josephus or the Talmud) where sheep are basically in the fields year round. I'm not sure the location of the sheep is decisive. And maybe you're saying something different altogether...
 
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