Discussion Pastor & wife say they don't believe Jesus is GOD❔❓

NoFrills said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that last night the pastor (same one who's on all kinds of antidepressants) told me he doesn't believe Jesus is God ...

I don't understand.. He was explaining away the verses in the bible such as the entire 1st chapter of the book of John about the Word being with God and being GOD and who created all things. A 'man' cannot do that.

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” - John 20:28

I don't understand how anyone can deny the deity of Yeshua. But I also know that I have been in UPC churches where the presence of God is very strong ... Is it possible that God isn't concerned with this detail?? (I find that very difficult to believe or understand but is it possible??)

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Can a person who denies the deity of Lord Jesus truly be a Christian?

NoFrills said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that last night the pastor (same one who's on all kinds of antidepressants) told me he doesn't believe Jesus is God ...

I don't understand.. He was explaining away the verses in the bible such as the entire 1st chapter of the book of John about the Word being with God and being GOD and who created all things. A 'man' cannot do that.

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” - John 20:28

I don't understand how anyone can deny the deity of Yeshua. But I also know that I have been in UPC churches where the presence of God is very strong ... Is it possible that God isn't concerned with this detail?? (I find that very difficult to believe or understand but is it possible??)

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This is devastating and embarrassing.
"devastating and embarrassing" is a quote from one of the translations or comments about discovering sin.

A lot of pastors, priests, religious leaders and teachers , don't believe at all what you think they believe.

It is heart breaking to find out the truth, especially when they do not turn to Yahuweh in truth (and usually they don't)....

It may be , very well may be, why what happened happened.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Can a person who denies the deity of Lord Jesus truly be a Christian?

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Not truthfully, but in the world, it seems yes.

I think there have been testimonies of members or former members who said they were like-wise shocked to find this out.

NoFrills said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that last night the pastor (same one who's on all kinds of antidepressants) told me he doesn't believe Jesus is God ...

I don't understand.. He was explaining away the verses in the bible such as the entire 1st chapter of the book of John about the Word being with God and being GOD and who created all things. A 'man' cannot do that.

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” - John 20:28

I don't understand how anyone can deny the deity of Yeshua. But I also know that I have been in UPC churches where the presence of God is very strong ... Is it possible that God isn't concerned with this detail?? (I find that very difficult to believe or understand but is it possible??)

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And what are your options?

Heresy for sure

WolfGate said:

Heresy for sure

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Note also that
until there is another witness, it is hearsay. i.e. not 'wrong' testimony, but still needs to be confirmed by two or three witnesses.

Hi nofrills,

Personally, I've always been more comfortable with God's own description of the relationship between He and Jesus. "This is my Son. In whom I am well pleased."

Jesus is God's Son and God is Jesus' Father. I think we should be mindful, as to your reference to Thomas' words, that what we have there is the recitation of the words that a man uttered about his understanding of Jesus. It isn't God saying that Jesus is God.

God refers to Jesus as His servant. Jesus refers to God as his Father and, in fact, shows that he doesn't have the omniscience that God has when asked about the time of the end. Jesus also makes the fairly clear point that the words he spoke were not words that came from his own mind and thoughts. He declares that the words he spoke were given to him by the Father.

If we are translating the salutations of Paul's letters correctly, Paul also seems to hold some differentiation between the Father and the Son. According to the Scriptures, Jesus is the exact representation of God to us. He is 'God with us'.

However, I fully believe that there will come a day when we will see clearly the relationship between our God and our Savior.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

NoFrills said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that last night the pastor (same one who's on all kinds of antidepressants) told me he doesn't believe Jesus is God ...

I don't understand.. He was explaining away the verses in the bible such as the entire 1st chapter of the book of John about the Word being with God and being GOD and who created all things. A 'man' cannot do that.

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” - John 20:28

I don't understand how anyone can deny the deity of Yeshua. But I also know that I have been in UPC churches where the presence of God is very strong ... Is it possible that God isn't concerned with this detail?? (I find that very difficult to believe or understand but is it possible??)

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I don't understand how anyone can deny the deity of Yeshua.

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Gnosticism does. Gnosticism denies the deity of Christ.

NoFrills said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that last night the pastor (same one who's on all kinds of antidepressants) told me he doesn't believe Jesus is God ...

I don't understand.. He was explaining away the verses in the bible such as the entire 1st chapter of the book of John about the Word being with God and being GOD and who created all things. A 'man' cannot do that.

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” - John 20:28

I don't understand how anyone can deny the deity of Yeshua. But I also know that I have been in UPC churches where the presence of God is very strong ... Is it possible that God isn't concerned with this detail?? (I find that very difficult to believe or understand but is it possible??)

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Find out where he got his degree if he has one. The world had infiltrated the church and higher textual criticism has eroded the faith of many in the pulpit. This is why many churches really are about social justice rather that seeking the LORD and sharing the gospel. This is widespread.

NoFrills said:

I don't understand.. He was explaining away the verses in the bible such as the entire 1st chapter of the book of John about the Word being with God and being GOD and who created all things. A 'man' cannot do that.

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Isn't that the point? That Jesus of Nazareth wasn't just a man - He is God (incarnate in human flesh).

I wonder if you may have misunderstood your pastor (and his wife). Could they have been referring to the point that "in the beginning" was Christ (and not as Jesus of Nazareth). IOW - Jesus of Nazareth was known to humanity for a finite period of time.....but Christ is eternal.....no beginning.....no ending. You know what I mean?

I'd definitely want to clarify this with them - because, yes, I DO believe it's an important issue.

NoFrills said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that last night the pastor (same one who's on all kinds of antidepressants) told me he doesn't believe Jesus is God ...

I don't understand.. He was explaining away the verses in the bible such as the entire 1st chapter of the book of John about the Word being with God and being GOD and who created all things. A 'man' cannot do that.

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” - John 20:28

I don't understand how anyone can deny the deity of Yeshua. But I also know that I have been in UPC churches where the presence of God is very strong ... Is it possible that God isn't concerned with this detail?? (I find that very difficult to believe or understand but is it possible??)

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First off, I'm certain that there is more going on here that you know, including some major hurt and/or trauma. Based on what you've said, my personal instinct is that he is looking for a way out and he's saying these things almost as a cry for help and to create a reason to be done. Again, that's just my gut feeling based on what you've said.

NoFrills said:

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” - John 20:28

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There are so many verses in the bible that make it perfectly reasonable the think Christ and God the father are not the same physical being, that I wouldn't know where to start.

It seems pretty reasonable when we are told to pray to the Father in Christs name, that they are separate. They are exactly the same in their thinking though.

And why would Christ ask the Father why he had forsaken him on the cross? If they were the same being there would be no father to forsake him, he would have forsaken himself, or it was God the Father that was actually crucified.

Sound outrageous, confusing, even sacrilegious? I know, because it is.

The clues are endless. Do I really need to say more? c

Oh, and did ya' know Jesus was the "son" of God?

This is not rocket science.

NoFrills said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that last night the pastor (same one who's on all kinds of antidepressants) told me he doesn't believe Jesus is God ...

I don't understand.. He was explaining away the verses in the bible such as the entire 1st chapter of the book of John about the Word being with God and being GOD and who created all things. A 'man' cannot do that.

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” - John 20:28

I don't understand how anyone can deny the deity of Yeshua. But I also know that I have been in UPC churches where the presence of God is very strong ... Is it possible that God isn't concerned with this detail?? (I find that very difficult to believe or understand but is it possible??)

Click to expand...

Follow this text,

Matthew 18:15-18 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

15 “If your brother or sister in God’s family does something wrong, go and tell them what they did wrong. Do this when you are alone with them. If they listen to you, then you have helped them to be your brother or sister again. 16 But if they refuse to listen, go to them again and take one or two people with you. Then there will be two or three people who will be able to tell all that happened.[a] 17 If they refuse to listen to them, tell the church. And if they refuse to listen to the church, treat them as you would treat someone who does not know God or who is a tax collector.

18 “I can assure you that when you speak judgment here on earth, it will be God’s judgment. And when you promise forgiveness here on earth, it will be God’s forgiveness.

NoFrills said:

I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that last night the pastor (same one who's on all kinds of antidepressants) told me he doesn't believe Jesus is God ...

I don't understand.. He was explaining away the verses in the bible such as the entire 1st chapter of the book of John about the Word being with God and being GOD and who created all things. A 'man' cannot do that.

Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!” - John 20:28

I don't understand how anyone can deny the deity of Yeshua. But I also know that I have been in UPC churches where the presence of God is very strong ... Is it possible that God isn't concerned with this detail?? (I find that very difficult to believe or understand but is it possible??)

Click to expand...

This is the fruit of some of the extreme anti-tradition end of certain sects of Protestantism. They have gone so far off that they don't bother to learn or embrace the basic Christian theology that has united Christianity for 1700 or so years. When you do this you basically get to reinvent contemporary versions of ancient heresies like Arianism etc.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Can a person who denies the deity of Lord Jesus truly be a Christian?

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When immature and in ignorance yes, but once corrected they will proclaim that Jesus is Lord.

Daniel Marsh said:

When immature and in ignorance yes, but once corrected they will proclaim that Jesus is Lord.

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Whatever side one takes on this issue, I've never heard anyone claim that Jesus isn't Lord.

So, might want to take it easy with the "ignorant" comments towards others...as you can see it bites back.

Kenny'sID said:

Whatever side one takes on this issue, I've never heard anyone claim that Jesus isn't Lord.

So, might want to take it easy with the "ignorant" comments towards others...as you can see it bites back.

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When I first got saved, I understood Jesus is Lord to mean Jesus is my Master.

But, once I started studying the Bible seriously, I found out,

1 Corinthians 12:3

• Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament /

Wherefore I give you to understand (dio gnwrizw umin). Causative idea (only in Aeschylus in old Greek) in papyri (also in sense of recognize) and N.T., from root gnw in ginwskw, to know. Speaking in the Spirit of God (en pneumati qeou lalwn). Either sphere or instrumentality. No great distinction here between lalew (utter sounds) and legw (to say). Jesus is anathema (anaqema Ihsou). On distinction between anaqema (curse) and anaqhma (offering Luke 21:5 ) see discussion there. In LXX anaqhma means a thing devoted to God without being redeemed, doomed to destruction ( Leviticus 27:28 ; Joshua 6:17 ; Joshua 7:12 ). See 1 Corinthians 16:22 ; Galatians 1:8 ; Romans 9:3 . This blasphemous language against Jesus was mainly by the Jews ( Acts 13:45 ; Acts 18:6 ). It is even possible that Paul had once tried to make Christians say Anaqema Ihsou ( Acts 26:11 ). Jesus is Lord (Kurio Ihsou). The term Kurio, as we have seen, is common in the LXX for God. The Romans used it freely for the emperor in the emperor worship. "Most important of all is the early establishment of a polemical parallelism between the cult of Christ and the cult of Caesar in the application of the term Kurio, 'lord.' The new texts have here furnished quite astonishing revelations" (Deissmann, Light from the Ancient East, p. 349). Inscriptions, ostraca, papyri apply the term to Roman emperors, particularly to Nero when Paul wrote this very letter (ib., p. 353f.): "One with 'Nero Kurios' quite in the manner of a formula (without article, like the 'Kurios Jesus' in 1 Corinthians 12:3 ." "The battle-cries of the spirits of error and of truth contending at Corinth" (Findlay). One is reminded of the demand made by Polycarp that he say Kurio Caesar and how each time he replied Kurio Ihsou. He paid the penalty for his loyalty with his life. Lighthearted men today can say "Lord Jesus" in a flippant or even in an irreverent way, but no Jew or Gentile then said it who did not mean it.1 Corinthians 12:3 Commentary - Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament