THE TRUE "REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY/SUPERSESSIONISM" OF THE BIBLE

jgr said:

If they weren't in agreement on the pretrib rapture, what were they in agreement with?

Sources and quotes, please.



You said we aren't debating the pretrib rapture. If you don't want to debate anything else, then neither do I.

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Their thoughts about the rapture are not known which is why we do not know where they would have stood on the matter in comparison to modern day dispensationalism and it needs to be made clear that even dispensationalists are not in agreement about whether the rapture takes places before or sometime during the forthcoming tribulation. but because the rapture is not relevant to this thread is why I have no desire to debate it here. I will stick with debating matters that are relevant to the thread topic.

What second century eschatology has in common with modern dispensationalism is the following:


1. The restoration of Israel as a nation (though many believed that the Church had temporarily replaced Israel)

2. That Christ could return at any time

3. A coming tribulation and Anti-Christ

4. A literal millennial reign

5. A resurrection of both the wicked and righteous

6. A new heavens and a new earth

mkgal1 said:

According to which Scripture?

The times I can think of where words are translated to "all the world" - the original word used was oikoumené ~ Strong's Greek: 3625. οἰκουμένη (oikoumené) -- the inhabited earth

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Which would apply to any place in the world inhabited, even outside of the Roman Empire.

mkgal1 said:

Some examples:
A census of the "whole world" was ordered by Caesar Augustus (Luke 2:1)


That was the world according to August Caesar who knew either little or nothing of lands beyond the borders of the Roman Empire and not according to Jesus who created the world.


Paul said the faith of the Romans was proclaimed throughout the whole world. Their faith was the Gospel of the kingdom that Jesus spoke of. At the end of Romans Paul said that the Gospel has been made known to all nations (Romans 16:25-26)

Paul taught this same idea when he wrote to the Colossians (Colossians 1:5-6)


Then he goes on in verse 23 to say:

if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister. ~ Colossians 1:23

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If the Gospel had been preached to all nations, then at what point during Paul's day was the Gospel taken to places such as the Americas, Australia, Japan, China, and the Scandinavian countries?
How do we answer that challenge?


1. Paul was ignorant of other peoples and nations. (That is no option for those who declare the Word of God to be infallible)

2. Our understanding of what defines a nation is wrong. (this would be my option because we are fallible in our understanding but God is not)

3. God does not leave Himself without witness, even to those who have not yet heard the Gospel, which is also what the scripture states. (Acts 14:16-17)


That being said, what other ways does God reveal the Gospel to men aside from sending His servants out to proclaim it?

jgr said:

Correction:

"What dispensationalism says about antichrist is contrary to what the Reformers believed, declared, and experienced..."

Whom to believe?

1. Historical Reformers who sacrificed their lives by the thousands to liberate the true Church from spiritual oppression.
2. Armchair futurist dispensationalists who understand nothing of such sacrifice, but denigrate the Reformation as being an "error".

Easy decision.

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Whom to believe concerning the identity of the Anti-Christ:


1. The theories and eschatology of fallible men, which includes both the Papacy and the reformers.

2. The infallible Word of God.


I believe the infallible Word of God over the theories and interpretations of fallible men regardless of who they are.

Contenders Edge said:

I believe the infallible Word of God over the theories and interpretations of fallible men regardless of who they are.

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Do you think that the Reformers believed the infallible Word of God?

Contenders Edge said:

Peter knew that Jesus could return at any given time and wanted his flocks to also be ready in case Christ did return in their life time, just as we need to be ready and about our Father's business in case He returns in our life time.

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So that means Israel's re- emergence as a nation in 1948 could not possibly be the fulfillment of any prophesy, if indeed, as you claim, Jesus could have returned back then.
It certainly makes Jesus ignorant of 1948

In reality, scripture is clear that the parousia of Christ was FIXED in time before the foundation of the world, and only ONE generation could be the generation that could expect it in their lifetimes. (Acts 17:31)

Its not an event that "could have happened" at anytime over the last 2000 years.

You have the apostles, (and therefore Jesus) exhorting their flocks to believe a lie?

Peter says that God does not count slowness the way we might count it. (2 Pet. 3:8-9) Are you going to accuse him of contradicting himself? If God doesn't count slowness the way we count it, then neither does He count the end of all things being at hand the way we do.

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So you are saying God is incapable of communicating the passing of time, to Humans, as it relates to the fulfillment of prophesy, accurately?

That when God says something is "far off", or that something is "near, at hand, about to take place, must shortly come to pass" that neither of those statements can be taken by humans at face value... that those statements are, in effect, ... Meaningless?

really?

Contenders Edge said:

Whom to believe concerning the identity of the Anti-Christ:


1. The theories and eschatology of fallible men, which includes both the Papacy and the reformers.

2. The infallible Word of God.


I believe the infallible Word of God over the theories and interpretations of fallible men regardless of who they are.

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Odd, since the Infallible word of God not once, ever, makes the claim that antichrist in an individual Human Ruler in our future.

Such is Solely derived from the fallible traditions of men.

Contenders Edge said:

And yet that generation did pass away without all things being fulfilled or so it seems. ...
But only small minded people who think that God is limited in His power and ability to fulfill prophecy exactly as declared would ever reject such a possibility.

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Aren't you flat out rejecting the possibility that God fulfilled His prophesy on time, back then?
Aren't you likewise limiting the power of God to have fulfilled His prophesy "shortly" after He said the time was "at hand" and "about to take place" in a "very very little while"?

When you choose to Limit God like that, What does that say about the size of your mind, based on your criteria above?

jgr said:

Do you think that the Reformers believed the infallible Word of God?

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I believed that they did, but were they or were they not fallible? Did they or did they not make mistakes and have shortcomings just as anyone else?

parousia70 said:

So that means Israel's re- emergence as a nation in 1948 could not possibly be the fulfillment of any prophesy, if indeed, as you claim, Jesus could have returned back then.
It certainly makes Jesus ignorant of 1948

In reality, scripture is clear that the parousia of Christ was FIXED in time before the foundation of the world, and only ONE generation could be the generation that could expect it in their lifetimes. (Acts 17:31)

Its not an event that "could have happened" at anytime over the last 2000 years.

You have the apostles, (and therefore Jesus) exhorting their flocks to believe a lie?

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Actually, Israel's re-emergence as a sovereign nation fulfills the words of Ezekiel chapter 37 and that prophecy could have been fulfilled in any given generation. Likewise, the return of Jesus could have easily have happened in any previous generation, just as it could happen in our generation or any succeeding generation but no one could ever know when Jesus was to return. He made that adamantly clear and to claim that His return could not have happened at anytime over the last 2000 years or that there is only one generation that could expect it in their lifetime is a blatant lie.

parousia70 said:

So you are saying God is incapable of communicating the passing of time, to Humans, as it relates to the fulfillment of prophesy, accurately?

That when God says something is "far off", or that something is "near, at hand, about to take place, must shortly come to pass" that neither of those statements can be taken by humans at face value... that those statements are, in effect, ... Meaningless?

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No, but it seems that you are incapable of understanding the intended meaning 2 Peter 3:8-9 in light of the rest of scripture in regards to the return of our Lord.

parousia70 said:

Odd, since the Infallible word of God not once, ever, makes the claim that antichrist in an individual Human Ruler in our future.

Such is Solely derived from the fallible traditions of men.

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It most certainly does make that claim and more than once and is not derived from the fallible traditions of men but is foretold by the text itself. It is the denial of a literal forthcoming Anti-Christ that is based off the traditions of fallible men.

parousia70 said:

Aren't you flat out rejecting the possibility that God fulfilled His prophesy on time, back then?
Aren't you likewise limiting the power of God to have fulfilled His prophesy "shortly" after He said the time was "at hand" and "about to take place" in a "very very little while"?

When you choose to Limit God like that, What does that say about the size of your mind, based on your criteria above?

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If all things had been fulfilled back in that generation, we would already be living in the New Heavens and the New Earth, but that we do not live in that world only proves that not all things were fulfilled back in that day but are yet to come.

If anyone is accusing God of being late in fulfilling His Word is would be you because you are attempting to set a time and a date in which you think He should have returned and are in violation of the scriptures which have stated more than once that we cannot know that time, not to mention that anyone who thinks that God is not capable of keeping someone from a particular generation alive for an indefinite period of time in order to fulfill His Word when the scriptures have declared that possibility has declared God to limited in His power and ability to fulfill prophecy.

In my defense, I am not attempting to set dates or confine God to the use of ordinary means like you have done.

Contenders Edge said:

I believed that they did, but were they or were they not fallible? Did they or did they not make mistakes and have shortcomings just as anyone else?

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The outcomes of the Reformers' beliefs about antichrist were sacrificial actions resulting in the liberation of the true Church from spiritual oppression.

What are the outcomes of your beliefs about antichrist?

jgr said:

The outcomes of the Reformers' beliefs about antichrist were sacrificial actions resulting in the liberation of the true Church from spiritual oppression.

What are the outcomes of your beliefs about antichrist?

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Depends on whether you are asking a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib dispensationalist.

Contenders Edge said:

Depends on whether you are asking a pre-trib, mid-trib, or post-trib dispensationalist.

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The question was:

What are the outcomes of your beliefs about antichrist?

Contenders Edge said:

Actually, Israel's re-emergence as a sovereign nation fulfills the words of Ezekiel chapter 37 and that prophecy could have been fulfilled in any given generation. Likewise, the return of Jesus could have easily have happened in any previous generation, just as it could happen in our generation or any succeeding generation but no one could ever know when Jesus was to return. He made that adamantly clear and to claim that His return could not have happened at anytime over the last 2000 years or that there is only one generation that could expect it in their lifetime is a blatant lie.

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Is Acts 17:31 A Blatant Lie?
31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Has that Day already been FIXED? or is Acts 17:31 a lie?

No, but it seems that you are incapable of understanding the intended meaning 2 Peter 3:8-9 in light of the rest of scripture in regards to the return of our Lord.

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2 Peter 3:8-9, and it's predecessor in the psalms, Psalm 90:4, are teaching the timeless nature of God.
It does not teach that God can't be trusted to communicate the passing of time accurately to Humans.

As to it relates to the return, tell me, When Jesus said:
Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

Are we to apply the 2 Peter 3 - a Thousand years is as a day- Rule?

So the correct interpretation, based on your claims, would be:
"33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near to God, but still could be thousands of years away to man" ?

Or, when Jesus wanted to communicate to Humans how they could discern when that event was "near and at the doors", He actually could be trusted to mean literally "near and at the doors" as it relates to the Human understanding of the passing of Time?

Contenders Edge said:

It most certainly does make that claim and more than once and is not derived from the fallible traditions of men but is foretold by the text itself.

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Link us to even one of those proof texts so we may examine your claim.

jgr said:

The question was:

What are the outcomes of your beliefs about antichrist?

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"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the whole world to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

parousia70 said:

Is Acts 17:31 A Blatant Lie?
31 because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead.”

Has that Day already been FIXED? or is Acts 17:31 a lie?

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The lie is not whether or not there is a day in which the world will be judged but that the day of judgment can be known.

parousia70 said:

2 Peter 3:8-9, and it's predecessor in the psalms, Psalm 90:4, are teaching the timeless nature of God.
It does not teach that God can't be trusted to communicate the passing of time accurately to Humans.

As to it relates to the return, tell me, When Jesus said:
Matthew 24:33
So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

Are we to apply the 2 Peter 3 - a Thousand years is as a day- Rule?

So the correct interpretation, based on your claims, would be:
"33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near to God, but still could be thousands of years away to man" ?

Or, when Jesus wanted to communicate to Humans how they could discern when that event was "near and at the doors", He actually could be trusted to mean literally "near and at the doors" as it relates to the Human understanding of the passing of Time?

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Whether or not God can be trusted to communicated the passing of time accurately to man is not what is being debated. No one is questioning that nor are they questioning the timeless nature of God, yet you seem to be questioning the words Peter who explains to us why the return of the Lord which is supposed be near seems slow in coming. He knew that a time would come when men would challenge the promise of the Lord's return hence the reason why he says that the Lord does not count slowness as we might count it as it applies to those things that are to come.

It is the only time scripture ever states that slowness or swiftness is not counted by God in the same way we count it and is applicable only to those things which are to come which include His return to the earth.

Even Jesus said that He would not return at the time that we would want Him to (Lk. 17:22) but more than once stated He would come on a day unknown to us.

parousia70 said:

Link us to even one of those proof texts so we may examine your claim.

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Anyone who has read and studied the scriptures from beginning to end even once should have no difficulty at all finding the proof texts by which my claim can be examined.

Contenders Edge said:

"Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon the whole world to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

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What to believe?

1. The reality of the spiritual victory of the Reformation of which all true Christians are beneficiaries.
2. The fantasy of a rapturous fallacy alien to the post-apostolic true Church for over 1700 years.

Easy decision.