Questions About Hell

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,987
2,479
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟555,318.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
QUOTE="Dorothy Mae
I don’t even try to represent it at all. Why do you think I do? I never claimed that!! I take your position and apply it to real life.

When you make claims and statements like you do below, you are representing what Patristic Universalism is and you are doing so falsely.

But if they want to do so believing your faith that they can just repent after the fun is over, what do you say? But only for a time. Then it’s back tothe good life. Not too bad. Jesus never promised this by the way.

Jesus most certainly made reference to it. If you were half the Bible scholar you present yourself to be, you would realize this.

Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

If you read the previous verses (i.e., context!) you will see that this verse is teaching that until the last farthing of punishment is paid, the soul is not released. And if you think that even one second in the scourging burning of God's love is something that you would just shrug off with a laugh, you really have a very incomplete view of sin. I had a very, very small taste of what this is like one night when God showed me my sins and it was the most horrible experience I have ever had. It went on for hours and I couldn't stop it and it was ...... horrible beyond description. You have no idea what you are making fun of and I guarantee you that right now, men like Hugh Hefner, Mao Tse Dung, Hitler, etc. are begging that the punishment end, but it will not end, as Jesus said, until the last farthing due them is paid!

If a person knew they’d end up in heaven no matter how they behaved, that’s what your position allows them to do. You have no real argument against it:

There was an understanding in the Early Fathers that you didn't share this with new converts. You warned them against the destruction sin and the punishment waiting for those who continued in sin, both punishment here and now (consequences ) and in the next life (hell).

I don’t see where Jesus warned us that not telling others about him is the meanest thing one can do.

Does that mean that it's okay not to look for opportunities to share Christ with those in need? Of course, John said that if all the things that Jesus said and did were written down, the world could not contain the books. Maybe He did say this and it didn't make the Bible.

Is every Christian filled with joy and promise all the time? Is Jesus merely useful for a better life?

No. So what? It is a far better life than the life of hedonism

Admit to yourself that the man who doesn’t want to restrict his behavior to God’s morals but wants to get as much of the joys and pleasure this life promises no matter who he destroys in the process has little to fear in the next in your view. The worst human who ever lived doesn’t need to worry about judgement before God cause after some purging, he’ll end up in Heaven. So he can enjoy a life of stealing and lying and power and sensual delights as he wishes and still not miss out on heaven in your view. Or do you have an answer to that problem?

As I said above, if you really knew the terror of God's loving chastisement, you wouldn't make such a statement.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

Light of the East

I'm Just a Singer in an OCA Choir
Supporter
Aug 4, 2013
4,987
2,479
75
Fairfax VA
Visit site
✟555,318.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Not interested in reading a lecture. This is a discussion which requires responses.

You could have stopped at "Not interested." You are terrified of anything that will upset the nice, tidy little theological world that you have made for yourself. You don't want to search for truth and you do not have an open mind to it. If you did, you would read and study everything you could get your hands on, devour it, and then sit down and see if you could tear it apart or if it makes sense. And you would be open to changing if you found yourself wrong.

That is the honorable way to pursue truth.

Honestly, I'm wasting my time with this conversation.

Enjoy your life. I'm done here.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟75,214.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
QUOTE="Dorothy Mae
I don’t even try to represent it at all. Why do you think I do? I never claimed that!! I take your position and apply it to real life.

When you make claims and statements like you do below, you are representing what Patristic Universalism is and you are doing so falsely.
NO I am
not. I am applying your theory to real
life. Of course none of you say this or you’d drop the theology quickly.
But if they want to do so believing your faith that they can just repent after the fun is over, what do you say? But only for a time. Then it’s back tothe good life. Not too bad. Jesus never promised this by the way.

Jesus most certainly made reference to it. If you were half the Bible scholar you present yourself to be, you would realize this.
Where did he promise that everyone will go to Heaven? That you attack me shows you know your position is weak and you know it.
Mat 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
How does one avoid this? By making friends with the Accuser. Hmmmm no mention of salvation at all. Salvation doesn’t avoid this. So it’s not talking about after death.

He said the fire that burns doesn’t burn out which is a warning. He didn’t say, „oh but you’ll get out after a bit so fear not.”
If you read the previous verses (i.e., context!) you will see that this verse is teaching that until the last farthing of punishment is paid, the soul is not released.
I read it. Better than you did.
And if you think that even one second in the scourging burning of God's love is something that you would just shrug off with a laugh, you really have a very incomplete view of sin. I had a very, very small taste of what this is like one night when God showed me my sins and it was the most horrible experience I have ever had. It went on for hours and I couldn't stop it and it was ...... horrible beyond description. You have no idea what you are making fun of and I guarantee you that right now, men like Hugh Hefner, Mao Tse Dung, Hitler, etc. are begging that the punishment end, but it will not end, as Jesus said, until the last farthing due them is paid!
Apparently the vision of your sin didn’t have much of an impact. Jesus says the worm does not die. The smoke of their torment goes up forever. If you had experienced a conversion you’d love God and the believers instead of just the better life you got.

If a person knew they’d end up in heaven no matter how they behaved, that’s what your position allows them to do. You have no real argument against it:

There was an understanding in the Early Fathers that you didn't share this with new converts.
I doubt it. You mean I disagree with you, that’s all.
You warned them against the destruction sin and the punishment waiting for those who continued in sin, both punishment here and now (consequences ) and in the next life (hell).
When did I do this?
I don’t see where Jesus warned us that not telling others about him is the meanest thing one can do.

Does that mean that it's okay not to look for opportunities to share Christ with those in need? Of course, John said that if all the things that Jesus said and did were written down, the world could not contain the books. Maybe He did say this and it didn't make the Bible.
Diffucult for you to accept what words mean it seems. If I say “not sharing Jesus isn’t the cruelest thing” which you says it was, you turn around and ask if it’s not OK to share. ????
Is every Christian filled with joy and promise all the time? Is Jesus merely useful for a better life?

No. So what? It is a far better life than the life of hedonism
So you’re in it for yourself, right?
Admit to yourself that the man who doesn’t want to restrict his behavior to God’s morals but wants to get as much of the joys and pleasure this life promises no matter who he destroys in the process has little to fear in the next in your view. The worst human who ever lived doesn’t need to worry about judgement before God cause after some purging, he’ll end up in Heaven. So he can enjoy a life of stealing and lying and power and sensual delights as he wishes and still not miss out on heaven in your view. Or do you have an answer to that problem?

As I said above, if you really knew the terror of God's loving chastisement, you wouldn't make such a statement.
If you really knew the terror of his chastisement you would love Him and others and not be so quick to accuse others of evil there’s no evidence they did. You play the accuser of the brethren.
 
Upvote 0

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟75,214.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You could have stopped at "Not interested." You are terrified of anything that will upset the nice, tidy little theological world that you have made for yourself.
Not afraid at all as i’m
willing to discuss. You’re likely afraid is all you can do is copy and paste and accuse others.

You don't want to search for truth and you do not have an open mind to it.
I read the scripture, you extracted the bit you liked.
If you did, you would read and study everything you could get your hands on, devour it, and then sit down and see if you could tear it apart or if it makes sense.
I read what you wrote and tore it apart and you hated it. Your theology is easily torn apart.
And you would be open to changing if you found yourself wrong.
I am. But I look at scripture and you lob insults.
That is the honorable way to pursue truth.

Honestly, I'm wasting my time with this conversation.

Enjoy your life. I'm done here.
Probably best but not for you. If you were willing to examine your theology openly you’d find the truth.
 
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
You could have stopped at "Not interested." You are terrified of anything that will upset the nice, tidy little theological world that you have made for yourself. You don't want to search for truth and you do not have an open mind to it. If you did, you would read and study everything you could get your hands on, devour it, and then sit down and see if you could tear it apart or if it makes sense. And you would be open to changing if you found yourself wrong.

That is the honorable way to pursue truth.

Honestly, I'm wasting my time with this conversation.

Enjoy your life. I'm done here.

Dear Light: We find on these threads a vast array of broken Christians, many simply wrapped up in themselves and the limited scope of the One who is unlimited. The tidy little theological world collapses the moment one's gaze meets the Gaze of all gazes!
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Saint Steven
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Then how come some “drown?”
The meme descibes what you believe....so this is a question for you to answer. How come Adam was able to come up to every man and push them in the water, without their knowledge or consent. But Jesus is unable to save every man from the water?
 
  • Winner
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟75,214.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
The meme descibes what you believe...
Not in the least. It’s actually absurd. I worked as a life guard and it’s laughable. You think because a lifeguard is in the chair, no swimmers ever drown....cause she/he’s in the chair. I got news...as a lifeguard, if a drowning person doesn’t want to be rescued, it sometimes cannot be done.
.so this is a question for you to answer. How come Adam was able to come up to every man and push them in the water, without their knowledge or consent.
Huh?? What are you talking about??
But Jesus is unable to save every man from the water?
As a life guard at a pool, I could save anyone who wanted to be saved. But I would not let them drown me too. I was taught to swim away from those who refuse to be saved.

Jesus let the 70 go. He let the rich young ruler go too. Never tried to save them.
 
Upvote 0

RaymondG

Well-Known Member
Nov 15, 2016
8,545
3,816
USA
✟268,974.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not in the least. It’s actually absurd. I worked as a life guard and it’s laughable. You think because a lifeguard is in the chair, no swimmers ever drown....cause she/he’s in the chair. I got news...as a lifeguard, if a drowning person doesn’t want to be rescued, it sometimes cannot be done.

We are talking about a Man who can walk atop the water and put a hand out to lift you out.....even if you are drowning in fear. This is no mere man with lifeguard training, trained to swim away from those whose actions can kill them.

This is One who would go down into hell to preach the Gospel and is willing the Die for those that would Kill him.

Your doctrine makes Him a mere Lifeguard, indeed. Yet He is more....so much more.

Huh?? What are you talking about??
Do you believe that sin, or the ability to sin entered the word because of the actions of one man? If not, ignore the comment
As a life guard at a pool, I could save anyone who wanted to be saved. But I would not let them drown me too. I was taught to swim away from those who refuse to be saved.
God is not like Man. He would save other, even if it cost His own life.....
 
  • Winner
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

Dorothy Mae

Well-Known Member
May 26, 2018
5,657
1,017
Canton south of Germany
✟75,214.00
Country
Switzerland
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
We are talking about a Man who can walk atop the water and put a hand out to lift you out.....even if you are drowning in fear. This is no mere man with lifeguard training, trained to swim away from those whose actions can kill them.
Power to coerce doesn’t mean He does. I repeat, Jesus let go those who left Him because following him didn’t suit them.

The point is never what he can do but what he DOES do.
This is One who would go down into hell to preach the Gospel and is willing the Die for those that would Kill him.
Doesn’t mean he forces any to be saved. Heaven has only volunteers.
Your doctrine makes Him a mere Lifeguard, indeed. Yet He is more....so much more.
No but your doctrine makes him a tyrant .
Do you believe that sin, or the ability to sin entered the word because of the actions of one man? If not, ignore the comment
Sin entered the world. In Jesus the ability to overcome sin entered the world. Both are choices.
God is not like Man. He would save other, even if it cost His own life.....
Not if the whole world perishes as a result. He’d let the one go. The father of 10 young children who risks and loses his life to save a stranger has not loved his children much. Jesus took no risk in calling people to him or back to him. No risk. He thought of others too.
 
Last edited:
  • Informative
Reactions: RaymondG
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
The Father Who Lost Two Sons

This is about what’s normally called The Parable of the Prodigal Son. That's only one of the two sons in the parable, the younger boy. The older boy is the one—the other son—who is lost. And the point about changing the name of the parable is that the parables are almost always misnamed.

The Parable of the Lost Sheep is not about the lost sheep.

All the sheep ever did was get lost. The parable is about the passion of the shepherd who lost the sheep to find the sheep. His passion to find is what drives the parable; and consequently it isn't the Prodigal's lostness, wasting all his money on wine, women and song in the far country; and it isn't the elder brother's grousing and complaining and score keeping that stands against him. What counts in the parable is the father's unceasing desire to find the sons he lost—both of them—and to raise both of them up from the dead.

The story, of course, you know. The story begins with the father having two sons and the youngest son comes to the father and says, "Father, divide the inheritance between me and my brother." What he’s in effect saying is,

"Dear Dad, drop dead now, legally.

Put your will into effect and just retire out of the whole business of being anything to anybody and let us have what is coming to us." So the youngest son gets the money and the older brother gets the farm. And off the younger brother goes. What he does, of course, is he spends it all—blows it all—on wild living. When he finally is in want and working, slopping hogs for a farmer and wishing that he could eat what he’s feeding the pigs, he can't stand it. When he finally comes to himself he says, "You know, I've got to do something. How many hired servants of my father's are there who have bread enough to spare and I'm perishing here with hunger? I know what I'm going to do."

Almost every preacher makes this the boy's repentance. It's not his repentance.

This is just one more dumb plan for his life.

He says, "I will go to my father and I will say, ‘Father, I've sinned against heaven and before you.'" That's true. He got that one right. "And I'm no longer worthy to be called your son." Score two. He gets that one right. But the next thing he says is dead wrong. He says, "Make me one of your hired servants." He knows—he thinks he knows—he can't go back as a dead son, and therefore he says, "I will now go back as somebody who can earn my father's favor again. I will be a good worker or whatever." This is not a real repentance, it's just a plan for a life. What it is, is enough to get him started going home, and consequently when he goes home, what happens next is an absolutely fascinating kind of thing.

What happens next?

What happens next is that the father (you must remember this) is now sitting on the front porch of the farm house. The farm house doesn't belong to him anymore. The front porch doesn't belong to him. He’s sitting in the rocker that belongs to his oldest son who is now, you know, the owner of the farm. He’s sitting there and he sees the Prodigal, the younger boy, coming down the road from far away. He sees him coming. What does he do? He rushes off the porch, runs a half mile down the road, throws his arms around the boy's neck and kisses him.

Now, this is all that Jesus does with this scene. The fascinating thing in this parable is that in the whole parable the father never says one single word to the Prodigal Son. Jesus makes the embrace, the kiss, do the whole story of saying, "I have found my son." The fascinating thing also is that when the father embraces the boy who has come home from wasting his life, the boy never gets his confession out of his mouth until after the kiss, until after the embrace. What this says to you and me who have to live with the business of trying to confess our sins is that confession is not a pre-condition of forgiveness. It’s something that you do after you know you have been forgiven. Confession is not something you do in order to get forgiveness. It’s something you do in order to celebrate the forgiveness you got for nothing. Nobody can earn forgiveness. The Prodigal knows he's a dead son. He can't come home as a son, and yet in his father's arms he rises from the dead and then he is able to come to his father's side.

What happens next is that the father, saying not a word to the Prodigal, turns to the servants and says, "Bring the best robe, bring a ring for his finger and shoes for his feet, kill the fatted calf and let us eat and be merry for this, my son, was dead and is alive again. He was lost and is found." Now this is the point in the parable at which everything is going well. The dead son, the no-good Prodigal Son, is home. He has been raised from the dead by his father's embrace. He has done nothing to earn it, but now all that matters is that the father has called for the party to celebrate the finding of the lost and the resurrection of the dead.

It's the party. Every one of Jesus' parables of grace—not every one, but most of them—end with a party.

When the Shepherd finds the lost sheep, he doesn't go back to the 99, he goes home and has a party with his friends in order to celebrate the finding of the lost. The father's will to have a party is what the parable is all about. That's why you must always do, not the human race characters in the parable like the Prodigal and the elder brother, why you must always do the God character first, because it’s the God character who drives the parable.

All right, now, what we've got now is everybody dead in the parable.

The father died at the beginning, the Prodigal died in the far country: he came home dead and the father raises him. Everything is fine. And now what we've got is Jesus' genius as a storyteller. The party is in full swing, so Jesus brings back in the only person in the story left who still has a life of his own: Mr. Responsibility, Mr. Whining, Mr. Elder Brother. He comes up and hears the music and the dancing and he probably sees the waiters scurrying around with roast veal platters and everything else. And he asks one of the servants, "What is this all about? I didn't commission a party." The servant says, "No, no, your brother has come home and your father has killed the fatted calf because he received him safe and sound." And the older brother is angry and he will not go in. He will not go into the house. He is right out there in the midst of the party. He is part of the party but he will not join the party. And the next thing that happens in this: when he comes in with all this bookkeeping he says, "Look," to his father, "all these years I served you and I never broke one of your commandments and you never even gave me a goat that I could make merry with my friends. But when this your son (notice he doesn't say, this my brother) cuts off his relationship, this your son has wasted your substance with riotous living, has wasted your substance with harlots, when this son comes home you kill the fatted calf!"

I think that one of the things you could do with this is make up a speech for the father.

The father goes out in the courtyard to plead with the older son. He goes out there in order to find him as he is and to raise him from the dead. He never gives up on any of them. He says to him, "Look, Arthur (let’s call the older brother Arthur), what do you mean I never gave you a goat for a party? If you wanted to have a great veal dinner for all your friends every week in the year, you had the money and the resources. You owned this place, Arthur. You have the money and the resources to have built 52 stalls and kept the oxen fattening as you wanted them to come along, but you didn't. Why didn't you do that, Arthur? Because you're a bean counter, because you're always keeping track of everybody else. That's your problem, Arthur, and I have one recipe for you." (The father is pleading with this fellow to come out of the death of bookkeeping.) He says, "I have one recipe for you, Arthur. That is, go in, kiss your brother, and have a drink. Just shut up about all this stuff because, Arthur, you came in here already in hell, and I came out here in this courtyard to visit you in the hell in which you were."

This is the wonderful thing about this parable, because it isn't that there was a Prodigal Son who was a bad boy and who, therefore, came home and turned out to be a good boy and had a happy ending. Then the elder brother—you would think Jesus, if he was an ordinary storyteller, would have said, "Let's give the elder brother a rotten ending." He doesn't. He gives the older brother no ending. The parable ends with a freeze frame. It ends like that with just the father, and the sound goes dead—the servants may be moving around with the wine and veal—but the sound goes dead and Jesus shows you only the freeze frame of the father and the elder brother. That's the way the parable has ended for 2,000 years.

My theory about this parable is that if, for 2,000 years, he has never let it end, then you can extend that indefinitely, that this is a signal, an image of the presence of Christ to the damned. When the father goes out into the courtyard, he is an image of Christ descending into hell; and, therefore, the great message in this is the same as Psalm 139, "If I go down to hell, You are there also." God is there with us. There is no point at which the Shepherd who followed the lost sheep will ever stop following all of the damned. He will always seek the lost. He will always raise the dead. Even if the elder brother refused forever to go in and kiss his other brother, the Father would still be there pleading with him. Christ never gives up on anybody. Christ is not the enemy of the damned. He is the finder of the damned. If they don't want to be found, well there is no imagery of hell too strong like fire and brimstone and all that for that kind of stupidity. But nonetheless, the point is that you can never get away from the love that will not let you go and the elder brother standing there in the courtyard in his own hell is never going to get away from the Jesus who seeks him and wills to raise him from the dead. -Robert Capon-
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

smithed64

To Die is gain, To Live is Christ
Supporter
Feb 2, 2013
808
279
Chattanooga, Tennessee
✟41,497.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Your first sentence is the best. James doesn’t come out and say it because none of them thought it. Otherwise this is really long and it’s obvious you are not open to another opinion.

I repeat, I take Jesus’ view on children, babies and as many other topics as I can find what he says about them. None of the others who wrote the Bible had a different view on any subject either. But laying the blame for evil men do on Adam is very popular.

Not true, it may have been long. But if your opinion is true and back by scripture. Then I am more than willing to change my thoughts on it.
It's long because it's scriptural based.
I also take Jesus view on children, he doesn't condemn them. Matter of fact, he condemns those that don't behave like children in their faith towards Him and the Father.
I don't lay the blame on Adam, God does.
Death is laid on Adam. No one knew what SIN was until the law. (again Romans 5:12-14)
The law is the schoolmaster that brings people to Christ. It's like a mirror that shows you the sins that are in your life. The Holy Spirit convicts, you repent, put your faith in Christ alone.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No one knew what SIN was until the law. (again Romans 5:12-14)
Let's check that reference.

Romans 5:13 NIV
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0

WebersHome

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 7, 2017
2,140
460
Oregon
✟368,343.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
.
He won't save if you didn't ask him.


When people know to speak up and don't, then there is no one to blame but their own stupidity.

For example: the rebirth about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-7 is essential if one is to have any hope at all of entering the kingdom of God; viz: the rebirth is not optional; it is a must; he says so in verse 7

The rebirth consists of two components: water and spirit. Both of those components are supernatural; but even so, they are available and very easy to obtain.

At John 4:10-14, Jesus instructed a Samaritan woman that she could have the water component merely by speaking up and asking him for it.

At John 7:27-39, Jesus instructed his countrymen that whoever believes in him would be given to drink of the spirit component if all they did was approach him for it.

Now when people are informed that the two components of the rebirth about which Jesus spoke at John 3:3-7 are available to anybody who simply speaks up and requests them, and they fail to do so, then there is no one to blame but their own negligence when they end up in the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where the non reborn-- a.k.a. the dead --will undergo a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.
_
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FineLinen

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jan 15, 2003
12,119
6,396
81
The Kingdom of His dear Son
✟528,512.00
Faith
Non-Denom
.

When people know to speak up and don't, then there is no one to blame but their own stupidity.

Dear Weber: I do not hear a speaking up from the drowning grip of sin. We are all a bunch of stupids in dire need of the Saviour of the all!

2edf657ffc2c2dd7a875e97d65c084b2d805f70c.jpeg
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
...they end up in the lake of brimstone depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where the lost will undergo a mode of death akin to a foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.
Well, that's a cheery thought. And it's all their own fault, you say.

We've been fed this stuff all our lives. Stop now and consider whether this really fits the character of God. Is that justice to throw someone in the molten stew for not accepting them? Does that show patience and forgiveness on God's part? For what purpose would this be done?
 
  • Agree
Reactions: FineLinen
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

WebersHome

Well-Known Member
Supporter
May 7, 2017
2,140
460
Oregon
✟368,343.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
.
And it's all their own fault, you say.


A Danger Foreseen,
Is Half-Avoided.

(Cheyenne Proverb)

A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions,
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.

(Old Testament Proverb)
_
 
Upvote 0

Saint Steven

You can call me Steve
Supporter
Jul 2, 2018
18,580
11,385
Minneapolis, MN
✟930,116.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
.



A Danger Foreseen,
Is Half-Avoided.

(Cheyenne Proverb)

A prudent person foresees the danger ahead and takes precautions,
The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences.

(Old Testament Proverb)
_
Words to live by. Thanks.

But do you really think this applies to the countless billions that you claim will experience eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape? You are claiming (as expected) that they ALL had the knowledge and opportunity to avoid it. Is that true?
 
Upvote 0

smithed64

To Die is gain, To Live is Christ
Supporter
Feb 2, 2013
808
279
Chattanooga, Tennessee
✟41,497.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Let's check that reference.

Romans 5:13 NIV
To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.

Let's do.
I didn't say sin wasn't in the world before the law was given. I said that people didn't know what sin was until the law was given.

Like a child doesn't know he or she is lying, when they apparently do at times. Until they are shown through God's word that they aught not do such a thing. And that there are consequences for doing so.

Cain knew he did wrong with murdering Abel. So much so he lied about it. But he didn't know the consequences of His Actions until God upholding His justice and law punished Him for the murder.

With the Law, We know we are doing wrong, not only do we know that the action is wrong, the intent to do the action is wrong Also. This is what Christ meant when he said that if a man LOOK at a woman with lust has committed Adultery in his heart already.

John even tells us that if you hate your brother, your a murder at heart and there is no eternal life in you whatsoever.

If i didn't make that clear at the time i wrote it. I apologize, didn't mean to confuse anyone.
But yes, sin existed, But the Law, is the sunlight in the room to shine through the darkness and shine on and show those sins out. So that we know that we aren't good nor righteous. And that we need a Savior Jesus Christ, to repent of those sins, Placing our trust in the one who bore our sins, but sinned not. So that we won't have to face an Wrathful God at the time of judgment.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

smithed64

To Die is gain, To Live is Christ
Supporter
Feb 2, 2013
808
279
Chattanooga, Tennessee
✟41,497.00
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Constitution
Well, that's a cheery thought. And it's all their own fault, you say.

We've been fed this stuff all our lives. Stop now and consider whether this really fits the character of God. Is that justice to throw someone in the molten stew for not accepting them? Does that show patience and forgiveness on God's part? For what purpose would this be done?

Who's fault is it then, if not those who reject God?

If you break the law, is it justice for you to get away with it?

Yes, it does show patience and forgiveness on God's part. He allows those who live another day everyday they wake up to come to Him. The Gospel is spread every where, there is no excuse for them not to know about Jesus and what He did for us.

The purpose?

God is a gentleman. He is just giving those who reject Him exactly what they want. An eternity without Him.

You just don't understand about God and who he is. This isn't your fault completely, but you can learn more. God does love us and he is more than patient with us. The eternal life he offers us with Him, he doesn't have to do it at all. It's a gift. It's unmerited favor. It's called Grace and mercy.

We rebel against Him, directly toward Him when we sin. We transgress God's laws. We shake our puny little hands up at him and say "I don't need you" and "I can do it myself" when we sin against Him.
Sin is vertical, not horizontal. He wants all men to be saved. But he also isn't going to force us to do so.

So yes, if a person goes to Hell, it's their fault. No one else.
 
Upvote 0