A Reasoned Case Against Impeachment

essentialsaltes · Dec 5, 2019

redleghunter said:
Yes this is very important when one is trying to actually put someone in jail or in this case remove from office. What's happening now is Nadler is left to try to 'prove' Schiff's narrative and timeline with a lot of speculation and innuendo as the sinew.

The trial is in the Senate, but the House Justice committee isn't finished yet either. So stay tuned.

civilwarbuff · Dec 5, 2019

KCfromNC said:
See post #5.

And again, I have repeatedly asked if the subpoenas are legal why has congress not pursued them through the courts?....so far no answer.

civilwarbuff · Dec 5, 2019

KCfromNC said:
The stuff in the testimony of the various witnesses and included in the report from the committee. You know, speaking of consistent, the one that GOP members both didn't have the time to read while at the same time are confident that it contains no evidence. Yet another argument seemingly made in bad faith.

So, you don't have any evidence....that's ok, no one else has been able to supply any either.

KCfromNC · Dec 5, 2019

civilwarbuff said:
And again, I have repeatedly asked if the subpoenas are legal why has congress not pursued them through the courts?

Wow, that was a quick change of subject.

civilwarbuff · Dec 5, 2019

essentialsaltes said:
but the House Justice committee isn't finished yet either. So stay tuned.

You mean Intelligence Committee?.....that is almost an oxymoron, isn't it?

civilwarbuff · Dec 5, 2019

KCfromNC said:
Wow, that was a quick change of subject.

So, you don't have an answer....that's ok, no one else does either.

KCfromNC · Dec 5, 2019

civilwarbuff said:
So, you don't have any evidence....that's ok, no one else has been able to supply any either.

Weird you seem to be both unaware of the volumes of testimony over the past few weeks and at the same time aggressively confident that there's nothing incriminating in it. Kinda reminds me of the stuff we heard from the GOP yesterday - they didn't have time to read the committee report but were positive there was no evidence in there.

KCfromNC · Dec 5, 2019

civilwarbuff said:
So, you don't have an answer

Ah yeah, the ignore the content of the reply and assert victory tactic. That's a sure sign of a viewpoint that's well backed by facts and reasonable inferences.

civilwarbuff · Dec 5, 2019

KCfromNC said:
Weird you seem to be both unaware of the volumes of testimony over the past few weeks and at the same time aggressively confident that there's nothing incriminating in it. Kinda reminds me of the stuff we heard from the GOP yesterday - they didn't have time to read the committee report but were positive there was no evidence in there.

I am quite aware of, and have read a fair amount of, the amount of testimony given but the volume of testimony in no way implies its veracity. In fact, witness after witness has contradicted other witnesses as well as themselves and still not one of them have any 1st hand knowledge or evidence that Trump made any such demand of anyone. Now, if I am wrong about this, here is you chance to show me. Please, some substantiated evidence that Trump has done what the claimed 'charges' accuse him of and you will have converted me to your side.

redleghunter · Dec 5, 2019

essentialsaltes said:
So stay tuned.

I'll try but men's group reading club has priority. Maybe someone can ping me when they find "Rudy in the drawing room with the candlestick."

Until then the House Democrats are making a dangerous precedent by saying the President does not have a right to appeal in courts. I mean what's the rush.

civilwarbuff · Dec 5, 2019

KCfromNC said:
Ah yeah, the ignore the content of the reply and assert victory tactic. That's a sure sign of a viewpoint that's well backed by facts and reasonable inferences.

You have not produced anything therefore I can't take your comments seriously......

keith99 · Dec 5, 2019

If the House proceeds solely on the Ukrainian allegations, this impeachment would stand out among modern impeachments as the shortest proceeding, with the thinnest evidentiary record, and the narrowest grounds ever used to impeach a president.7 That does not bode well for future presidents who are working in a country often sharply and, at times, bitterly divided.

What is modern? Post WW II, Post WW I or Post Civil war?

It is worth noting that on Feb 21 1868 Andrew Johnson removed Edwin Stanton from the position of Secretary of War which was in violation of the Tenure of Office act (something that today would be clearly unconstitutional) and he was impeached on Feb 24. three whole days!

Yet that somehow did not destroy the country.

essentialsaltes · Dec 5, 2019

civilwarbuff said:
You mean Intelligence Committee?.....that is almost an oxymoron, isn't it?

No, the Intelligence Committee (under Schiff) is done. The Judiciary Committee (under Nadler) is now undertaking the inquiry.

civilwarbuff · Dec 5, 2019

essentialsaltes said:
No, the Intelligence Committee (under Schiff) is done. The Judiciary Committee (under Nadler) is now undertaking the inquiry.

Your post said the 'Justice' committee, something I had never heard of..

stevil · Dec 5, 2019

civilwarbuff said:
IIRC, Clinton actually did commit perjury and temporarily lost his law license over it.

Is a president lying about a personal affair a threat to the democracy or national security of USA?
Did Bill Clinton pose an ongoing threat to USA?
If setting a precedence that USA presidents can have extra marital affairs, does this pose a threat to the future of USA, for future presidents and future administrations?

What Trump did was far more serious, and does pose an ongoing threat to USA.
If set as a precedent that this is OK, are you likely to get future presidents threatening, blackmailing, withholding aid from allies in grave situations in order to benefit themselves personally and in particular in order to smear political rivals (by publicly announcing investigations without evidence or just cause).

stevil · Dec 5, 2019

civilwarbuff said:
And again, I have repeatedly asked if the subpoenas are legal why has congress not pursued them through the courts?....so far no answer.

The court system can be dragged out for years. Once one court makes a ruling, it then gets challenged and so goes up to the next level of court, then when that court makes a ruling, it again gets challenged...

civilwarbuff · Dec 5, 2019

stevil said:
The court system can be dragged out for years. Once one court makes a ruling, it then gets challenged and so goes up to the next level of court, then when that court makes a ruling, it again gets challenged...

Here in the US things like this can be expedited and move quickly up the chain to SCOTUS if necessary.

civilwarbuff · Dec 5, 2019

stevil said:
Is a president lying about a personal affair a threat to the democracy or national security of USA?
Did Bill Clinton pose an ongoing threat to USA?

Yes. His lie opens him up to blackmail especially the longer it is kept secret.

stevil said:
If setting a precedence that USA presidents can have extra marital affairs, does this pose a threat to the future of USA, for future presidents and future administrations?

Yes. See above comment.

stevil said:
What Trump did was far more serious, and does pose an ongoing threat to USA.

What did he do and what evidence do you have to prove it?

stevil · Dec 5, 2019

civilwarbuff said:
Here in the US things like this can be expedited and move quickly up the chain to SCOTUS if necessary.

From what I've seen, these things drag on, and on, and on.

How long has Trump been put through the court system with regards to releasing his tax statements?
How many losses has he had, and yet, his taxes still aren't released.

stevil · Dec 5, 2019

civilwarbuff said:
What did he do and what evidence do you have to prove it?

There is an abundance of evidence, which people have already mentioned.
Unfortunately you take a quick look and "That doesn't look like anything to me" goes through your mind and then you keep asking for evidence.

A Reasoned Case Against Impeachment

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