Is Calvinism Just?
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if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.
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I agree with what you said for all those who believe for there is no distinction. The one thing I keep seeing in the scriptures tho is Jesus and the apostles telling everyone to believe. I don’t see any separation of nonbelievers that are ever excluded. I don’t ever see them picking people out of the crowd and only telling these people to believe. What I mean is I don’t see any distinction between chosen and unchosen; elect and unelected.
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Jeus spoke to the crowds....to the sheep. His sheep heard His voice. Some don't have an ear to hear.
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We have the hope of salvation in this life.
“so that by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us. This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, a hope both sure and steadfast and one which enters within the veil, where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.”
Hebrews 6:18-20 NASB
“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.”
Romans 5:1-9 NASB
“And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.”
Romans 8:23-25 NASB
“Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the faith of those chosen of God and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness, in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,”
Titus 1:1-2 NASB
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His sheep hear and follow present tense, so what about those who heard and followed but didn’t continue to do so?
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Like branches grafted in, that then later do not produce fruit , until, as written, they are cut out .... ?
For those who are simply weak though, be encouraged, God Himself Will Give the Fruit/ the Growth, / the Increase ! HE DELIGHTS IN THOSE WHO DELIGHT IN HIM !
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Two things seem to have been overlooked and not addressed in this discussion.
1. People do find favor with God after doing good works.
2. Salvation can be revoked for failing to abide in Christ.
Calvin says no one can find favor with God before election and no one can do good before election. Calvin also says no one who is not elected can believe in Christ.
1. People do find favor with God after doing good works.
2. Salvation can be revoked for failing to abide in Christ.
Calvin says no one can find favor with God before election and no one can do good before election. Calvin also says no one who is not elected can believe in Christ.
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Reformists will probably hate me for this.
If God’s election is true then...
1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us? Hence total depravity.
2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?
3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?
4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?
5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation since He has the power to save everyone as per irresistible grace?
6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?
7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?
8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?
9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?
10. Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in by God of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity a person is incapable of believing unless they are elected by God. According to Calvin’s doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist God’s grace and election. So how can a person be grafted into the olive tree and later cut off for unbelief if they were incapable of believing to begin with unless they are elected by God and incapable of resisting grace and election?
11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?
12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?
13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?
14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?
“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
Colossians 1:21-23 NASB
15. In Genesis 6:5-6 the scriptures say that God was grieved in His heart by the wickedness of man. Why would God be grieved in His heart if He knew that their wickedness was the result of His decision to not choose them for salvation and bestow grace upon them?
“Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”
Genesis 6:5-6 NASB
16. According to Romans 10:21 God has stretched out His hands to a disobedient obstinate people. Is God stretching out His hands to people He hasn’t elected knowing that they are in total depravity and are incapable of repentance? That wouldn’t make any sense unless they were capable of repenting but were choosing of their own free will to be stubborn. But according to the doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist grace. So if Calvin was correct either these people have been elected by God and are resisting grace or they have not been elected by God and yet God is expecting them to repent while they are incapable of doing so. Either way Calvin’s doctrines aren’t making any sense here.
“But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”
Romans 10:21 NASB
17. This next verse speaks for itself.
“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
Acts 10:34-35 NASB
If God’s election is true then...
1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us? Hence total depravity.
2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?
3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?
4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?
5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation since He has the power to save everyone as per irresistible grace?
6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?
7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?
8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?
9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?
10. Romans 11:17-23 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in by God of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity a person is incapable of believing unless they are elected by God. According to Calvin’s doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist God’s grace and election. So how can a person be grafted into the olive tree and later cut off for unbelief if they were incapable of believing to begin with unless they are elected by God and incapable of resisting grace and election?
11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?
12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?
13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?
14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?
“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”
Colossians 1:21-23 NASB
15. In Genesis 6:5-6 the scriptures say that God was grieved in His heart by the wickedness of man. Why would God be grieved in His heart if He knew that their wickedness was the result of His decision to not choose them for salvation and bestow grace upon them?
“Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. The LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.”
Genesis 6:5-6 NASB
16. According to Romans 10:21 God has stretched out His hands to a disobedient obstinate people. Is God stretching out His hands to people He hasn’t elected knowing that they are in total depravity and are incapable of repentance? That wouldn’t make any sense unless they were capable of repenting but were choosing of their own free will to be stubborn. But according to the doctrine of irresistible grace a person cannot resist grace. So if Calvin was correct either these people have been elected by God and are resisting grace or they have not been elected by God and yet God is expecting them to repent while they are incapable of doing so. Either way Calvin’s doctrines aren’t making any sense here.
“But as for Israel He says, " ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."”
Romans 10:21 NASB
17. This next verse speaks for itself.
“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
Acts 10:34-35 NASB
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Skidder
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And I believe this is the crux of the Calvinist deception...
What is total depravity?
Total depravity must mean total depravity before we can understand the POWER that freed us from total depravity.
The bible clearly says the gospel is the power of God UNTO salvation. If God had to make a person a believer than that contradicts the cross as the power unto salvation. So Calvinism is a direct attack on Jesus Christ and Him crucified. If the cross lacked the power to bring a "totally depraved" person unto faith in Christ, then surely God would have to intervene and make that person a believer.
But I can assure you, THE CROSS HAS THE POWER to bring even the strongest and proudest to their knees! That love story that cuts to the heart... a perfect submission, hands lifted up, the heavy burdens relieved, broken hearts are mended, tears of joy in a sea of thankful hearts praising THE LAMB WHO WAS SLAIN!! Filled with the GRACE OF HEAVEN!! BEHOLD, THE FATHER HAS GIVEN HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN!!
This is the Gospel that saves! This is the POWER OF GOD!!!
(((that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that He was buried, and that He rose again on the third day according to the scriptures)))- 1 Corinthians 15
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Jesus did say no one can come to Me unless The Father draws him.
Later he said
“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."”
John 12:32 NASB
He is Risen!! Is He not?
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Study Bible
Trust in the LORD
…3Never let loving devotion or faithfulness leave you; bind them around your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart. 4Then you will find favor and high regard in the sight of God and man. 5Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding;…
Berean Study Bible · Download
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Rick Otto
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I believe you are not giving due consideration of the difference between being responsible for man's behavior (will) and bearing the guilt for man's behavior.
I am responsible for my children's behavior even though I did not commit their trespasses.
Do you understand that justice isn't about what's "fair"?
Look up the Latin root. It means "soup". "Too many chefs spoil the broth" is a worthy adage.
God is about perfection, not fairness.
Of COURse it's a "huge problem" that God's election to salvation is outside man's capability of attaining. That's why it took His crucifixion to fix.
Man's ability to freely choose spiritually was lost in the fall.
1 Corinthians 2:14: But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Paul also points out that the gospel is foolishness to those who ARE drowning, but it is the power of God to the saved. So you can't even make sense of the gospel until the Holy Spirit gives you faith (ears to hear).
Yes, we are powerless and totally dependant on His mercy, which is fine by me because I would screw it up for sure.
If you are proud of your decision to be saved, you might not be.
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No context was posted with that scripture, so before I jump the gun with comment, I was hoping you could explain the scriptures purpose.
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Rick Otto
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Wrong.
Calvinism allows for choice, but doesn't enshrine the will with a false authenticity just because it is able to choose wrongly.
If a fallen man is able to choose salvation, he isn't completely fallen.
So believe in God's ability to choose, not in some random fallen dude in the flesh.
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Rick Otto
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It perfectly refutes the OP's assertion that if God's mercy is the only hope for an individual, God shouldn't have created people who are meant to receive His justice (that's not fair!).
But He did:
Rom.9
- [22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
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