A self proclaimed "Saved Calvinist" commits murder in the morning...

redleghunter

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Taking all the sins of the world doesn't mean all will have the same outcome.

And the ''many are called few are chosen'' is definitely a summary of a parable,people who were invited to a wedding but the number of guests show up is few. Come on now, I expect better from Reformed/Baptist/Protestant people than to appeal to ambiguous parables to prove doctrine. It's general only works-based people who are desperate to find a shred of scripture that might suggest that activity is needed for salvation that go down that direction.

Anyway you made some good points here.
I don't remember the Shepherd discourse being a parable. If everyone throughout history had their sins forgiven at the cross then we would be in Universalist land.
 
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reformed05

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But wouldn't a better way to do this just describe man's condition instead of asking souls to repent and be saved?
not necessarily. People have personalities. They do things, including preaching, according to their personality. The Bible says many are called, few are chosen. According to Reformed Theology the call goes out to everyone, some respond in faith, some do not. They have to HEAR. The preaching is a call to faith and repentance. A preacher is merely the purveyor of the message and as long as the message is Biblically accurate the method of presentation is a small issue.

personally I prefer a straightforward presentation of who Jesus is, what He did and why it was necessary for Him to do it. I do not think it wise in evangelizing or necessary to begin with predestination.. However, I'm sure there are people who are called to salvation by the call to repent. God knows. It is God that does the work in individual hearts. He will see to it.
 
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reformed05

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So you are back to it being a possible propitiation.

You said, “Propitiation is needed to satisfy God as a sinned creature will be rejected and not allowed in his kingdom.”

If He’s the propitiation for the whole world, then God is satisfied with the whole world through Christ’s sacrifice.

when the Bible tells us that Jesus is the propitiiation for the whole it cannot mean what you suggest because other portions of scripture make it CLEAR that Christ's sacrifice did not satisfy God's wrath against everyone. Therefore you must conclude the whole world in this context does NOT mean everybody in the whole world, and that one of its other possible usages applies. Not rocket science.
 
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Hammster

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Well like I said already I think dying for all sins and propitiation are two different things. Our atonement is being born again but not everyone will have faith on Christ as their saviour.

I'm not convinced limited atonement is Biblical and for anyone who's interested in learning a deeper dimension to the world I would recommend the Gospel of John,especially around the last super dialogue.
The atonement is propitious.
 
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David Kent

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To what gods are you referring..?
The so called consecrated wafer, the bon dieu,
The Pope who calls himself god on earth.
Mary. Who is the equivlent of Artemis.
Peter, whose statue in Rome was the same lump of metal that was worshipped in the past as Jupiter.
The Pantheon of all the Roman gods, Now worshipped as Mary and all the Martyrs. Same gods.
 
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reformed05

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Boom!!

Reformed Theology is grave error of course but more worrying is the danger it poses to the Salvation of those who follow it...

I thought it was against the rules to question the salvation of others on here. But even if it is not, it is extremely unwise and it could in some cases be dangerous. And since you DID SAY it you owe it to every Reformed viewer to explain yourself. What exactly about Reformed Theology would bring our salvation into question!! In YOUR JUDGEMENT.
Here are some things that disturb me about the Catholic religion, though I do not presume to judge the salvation of Catholic individuals.
They pray to Mary
They pray to dead people
They make idols and venerate them
They address a normal human as Holy Father
They think we have to add our good works to what Jesus did in order o be saved (that what He did is not enough)
They believe sins are forgiven through penance assigned by a Priest
I realize the RC hates Calvin and I understand why. He tore down what had become a corrupt institution. But I thought they were over it by now.
 
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S.ilvio

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The so called consecrated wafer, the bon dieu,
The Pope who calls himself god on earth.
Mary. Who is the equivlent of Artemis.
Peter, whose statue in Rome was the same lump of metal that was worshipped in the past as Jupiter.
The Pantheon of all the Roman gods, Now worshipped as Mary and all the Martyrs. Same gods.
Dude. You need to educate yourself, rather than spewing out this Dan Browne style nonsense...:D
 
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redleghunter

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My issue, though, relates back to "total depravity" as a doctrine, and by inference to "irresistible grace". In the sense that, if a man has no capacity to either respond positively or negatively to the Gospel, and his response is entirely willed and activated and orchestrated by God, minus any internal response or choice from him, asking that man to repent and believe the Gospel seems useless, and contradictory.
Regeneration is an internal response.
 
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anna ~ grace

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not necessarily. People have personalities. They do things, including preaching, according to their personality. The Bible says many are called, few are chosen. According to Reformed Theology the call goes out to everyone, some respond in faith, some do not. They have to HEAR. The preaching is a call to faith and repentance. A preacher is merely the purveyor of the message and as long as the message is Biblically accurate the method of presentation is a small issue.

personally I prefer a straightforward presentation of who Jesus is, what He did and why it was necessary for Him to do it. I do not think it wise in evangelizing or necessary to begin with predestination.. However, I'm sure there are people who are called to salvation by the call to repent. God knows. It is God that does the work in individual hearts. He will see to it.
Ok. But is it not true that they are not, in fact, called, only that God has predestined them, caused them to respond positively, granted them faith, and continues to work in them?

I can understand that you believe that God knows who will and that who does is His choice, not ours. But still, a call for a sinner to repent, if he can not, still feels weird.
 
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Daniel C

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I quoted you incorrectly. I have amended the post now.

But the errors still exist.

Calvinists ignore the dire warnings in Hebrews of turning away from God. We are all in peril...


I'm not Reformed I identify a fundamental Baptist but most fundamental Baptist also believe in eternal security. The method how we are saved differs between Reformed and Baptist but we both agree once saved,always saved by faith alone on Christ.

I would say if a Baptist that proclaimed he was saved and believed in eternal security went out and murdered someone: Never saved to begin with and just made a bogus claim.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Why do they need assistance if they can't fall away? Besides, that is not what it says.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false Prophets will appear and deceive many people.

You can't fall away from the faith if you never had faith.

This scripture refers to the tares.
 
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redleghunter

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Ok, but it's still an intenal response willed and enacted wholly by God, right? Minus any involvement from the human will?
Our human will is 'colored' in a sense I believe reading Romans chapter 6. We are 'freely' choosing our actions either as slaves to sin and death or slaves to righteousness. Luther called that portion of Romans 6 "The Bondage of the Will."

Ephesians chapter 2 begins with a bleak spiritual state in all people. That we are dead in our sins and trespasses, sons of wrath walking "according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience." That is our state before God moves to save us. The chapter continues with the Great Hope:

4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

The bottom line is Paul uses the analogy of being dead, not diseased, to show our spiritual state. What I shared so far is not Calvinism but basic Biblical doctrine.

I think you might be asking "what is the catalyst which gets us from the dead state to the alive in Christ state?" The Gospel:

Romans 1: NASB

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS man SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.”

And:

Romans 10: NASB

14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, “HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!”

16However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?” 17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

Again, taking purely Biblical doctrine, it is apparent that God uses the preaching of the Word so those can hear the Gospel.

What else is going on here?

John 3: NASB

4Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born, can he?” 5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6“That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7“Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8“The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”


It is the Holy Spirit Who calls us and 'effects' us being "born of the Spirit."

All of the above is Biblical doctrine. But your question was why implore someone to come to the cross and preach them the Gospel? The short answer is because God tells us to do so. It is also evident that it is the way God wants it to be. I'll explain as you brought in irresistible grace and also election. In Ephesians chapter 1 we see it more clearly. Paul begins by explaining the richness of God's love and mercy for those He chooses or elects early in the chapter. Then Paul addresses the new converts as he explains these things were realized when they were saved:

Ephesians 1: NASB

1Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.


3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

Notice verses 13-14. God's design is not to have 'elect out of the womb' but at a prescribed time in material history we listen to the message of truth (the Gospel), believe and are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. Notice the distinction earlier. God choosing was before material time, space and matter, before creation in eternity. But we are carbon based life forms and there is a specific time in which one hears, is called, responds and is sealed.
 
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David Kent

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Dude. You need to educate yourself, rather than spewing out this Dan Browne style nonsense...:D
No it is you who needs to be educated or open your mind to the truth.
Here is a bit of history for you.

"Papal authority indeed made no great progress beyond the bounds of Italy until the end of the sixth century. At this period the celebrated Gregory I, a talented, active, and ambitious man, was Bishop of Rome. He stands at the meeting place of ancient and mediaeval history, and his influence had a marked effect on the growth of Latin Christianity. He exalted his own position very highly in his correspondence and intercourse with other bishops and with the sovereigns of western Europe, with whom he was in constant communication. Claims that had previously been only occasionally suggested were now systematically pressed and urged. He dwelt much on the power conferred on the bishops of Rome in the possession of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, which were committed to Peter and his successors. The Gothic nations were too ignorant to unravel the sophistries of this clever and determined priest, and they permitted him to assume a kind of oversight of their ecclesiastical matters.

His successor, Boniface III, carried these pretensions still higher. He was the last of the bishops of Rome and the first of the popes. In his days the claim to supremacy over all other bishops was, not only definitely made, but it was acknowledged by the secular power and confirmed by an imperial edict. The wicked usurper Phocas, to serve his own selfish purposes, conceded to Boniface III in A.D. 607 the headship over all the Churches of Christendom. A pillar is still standing in Rome which was erected in memory of this important concession. This was a tremendous elevation, the first upward step on the ladder that led the bishops of Rome from the humble pastorate of a local Church to the mightiest throne in Europe. But still all that was claimed or granted was simple episcopacy, though of a universal kind; no thought of secular government existed at this period. The matter however did not stop here. This supreme episcopal jurisdiction led to constant interferences of the Roman bishop in the affairs of the various nations of Christendom, and to ever-increasing pretensions to authority in matters secular as well as ecclesiastical, until five hundred years later, in A.D. 1073, Pope Gregory VII took a great stride in advance and established

A THEOCRACY ON EARTH.

He was the first who claimed, as the representative of Deity, to be above all the kings of the world. This proud and self-exalting man strove, and strove successfully, not only to emancipate the spiritual power from all control by the State, not only to secure for it absolute independence, but, further, to subject the secular power of princes to the spiritual power of priests, and thus to establish at Rome in his own person and in the succession of the Roman pontiffs an absolute and supreme ruler of the world. Nor did he propound this new and startling doctrine as a theory only. With daring and audacity he excommunicated the German emperor Henry IV, released his subjects from allegiance to him, and forbade them to obey him as sovereign.2 He actually succeeded in exacting humiliating concessions from the emperor, and yet he subsequently bestowed his kingdom on another. This pope turned the bishopric of Rome into a universal and unlimited monarchy, and the sovereigns of Europe were unable to oppose his unprecedented usurpations. He established also an undisguised and irresistible despotism over the national Churches in other lands, by enacting that no bishop in the Catholic Church should enter on the exercise of his functions until the pope had continued his election, ar law of far-reaching and vast importance, by which perhaps more than by any other means Rome sustained for centuries her temporal power as well as her ecclesiastical influence.

Many of the constant quarrels between our own early English kings and the popes of Rome, as well as many similar feuds on the Continent, arose out of this flagrant usurpation of national rights and invasion of national liberties. It virtually took from the Churches the power to appoint their own bishops, and placed them under a foreign despotism. The clergy of all nations were by this time enslaved to the Papacy, and by obeying its bulls of excommunication and giving effect to its interdicts they placed in the pope’s hand a lever to move the world. During the interdict the churches in a country were all closed, bells silent, the dead unburied; no masses could be performed, no rites except those of baptism and extreme unction celebrated. This state of things was so dreadful to a superstitious age, that monarchs were obliged to yield lest their people should revolt. The result of every such interdict was an increase to the power of the Papacy, and they soon brought all refractory rulers in Europe to terms.

When the maxims of Gregory VII had been acted out for a century, and the power to trample on the necks of kings had come to be regarded by churchmen as an inherent right of the Papacy, the proud spirit of Papal aggression reached its climax. The period of climax may be dated from the pontificate of Innocent III, A.D. 1198. The leading objects which the Roman pontiffs had steadily pursued for centuries seemed at last attained: independent sovereignty, absolute supremacy over the Christian Church, and full control over the princes of Europe.

The historian Hallam says of this man: "He was formidable beyond all his predecessors, perhaps beyond all his successors. On every side the thunder of Rome broke over the heads of princes."3 He excommunicated Sweno, king of Norway; threatened the king of Hungary to alter the succession; put the kingdom of Castile under an interdict; and when Philip Augustus of France refused at his bidding to take back his repudiated wife, Innocent did not hesitate to punish the whole nation by putting France also under the same dreaded penalty, until her king humbly submitted to the pope’s behest. King John of England and Philip II of Aragon were both constrained to resign their kingdoms and receive them back as spiritual fiefs from the Roman pontiff, who claimed also the right to decide the election of the emperors of Germany by his confirmation or veto. "The noonday of Papal dominion extends from the pontificate of Innocent III inclusively to that of Boniface VIII., or, in other words, throughout the thirteenth century. Rome inspired during this age all the terror of her ancient name; she was once more the mistress of the world, and kings were her vassals." 4

Innocent III claimed also the right to dispense with both civil and canon law when he pleased, and to decide cases by the plenitude of his own inherent power. He dispensed also with the obligation of promises made on oaths, undermining thus the force of contracts and treaties. The military power of the Papacy dates also from this man, as the crusades had left him in possession of an army. Systematic persecution of so-called heretics began also in this pontificate. The corruptions, cruelties, and assumptions of the Papacy had become so intolerable, that protests were making themselves heard in many quarters. It was felt these must be silenced at any cost, and a wholesale slaughter of heretics was commenced with a view to their extermination. The Inquisition was founded, the Albigenses and Waldenses were murderously persecuted, and superstition and tyranny were at their height. From this century Papal persecution of the witnesses for the truth never ceased until the final establishment of Protestantism at the end of the seventeenth century.



In A.D. 1294 Boniface VIII became pope, and by his superior audacity he threw into the shade even Innocent III. He deserves to be designated the most usurping of mankind, as witness his celebrated bull Unam Sanctam In this document the full claims of the Papacy come out. We have noted several ever increasing stages of Papal assumption already, but now we reach the climax ─ the claim which, if it were a true one, would abundantly justify all the rest; we reach the towering pinnacle and topmost peak of human self-exaltation. What was the claim of Boniface VIII? It was that

THE POPE REPRESENTS GOD ON EARTH.


As this claim is the most extraordinary and audacious ever made by mortal man, I will state it, not in my own words, but in the words of the highest Papal authority. In the summary of things concerning the dignity, authority, and infallibility of the pope, set forth by Boniface VIII, are these words: "The pope is of so great dignity and excellence, that he is not merely man, but as if God, and the vicar of God (non simplex homo, sed\par quasi Deus, et Dei vicarius). The pope alone is called most holy...Divine monarch, and supreme emperor, and king of kings. The pope is of so great dignity and power, that he constitutes one and the same tribunal with Christ (faciat unum et idem tribunal cum Christo), so that whatsoever the pope does seems to proceed from the mouth of God (ab ore Deo).


The pope is as God on earth (papa est QUASI DIAS IN TERRA)." That which was claimed by Boniface VIII in the thirteenth century has been claimed ever since by a succession of popes down to Pius IX and Leo XIII in the nineteenth century. The pope speaks today as the vicar of Christ, as God's vice-regent. The great ecumenical council of 1870 proclaimed him such, and declared him to be INFALLIBLE! A professor of history in the Roman university, writing on the council of 1870, uses the following language, which strikingly expresses the Papal ideal: "The pope is not a power among men to be venerated like another. But he is a power altogether Divine. He is the propounder and teacher of the law of the Lord in the whole universe; he is the supreme leader of the nations, to guide them in the way of eternal salvation; he is the common father and universal guardian of the whole human species in the name of God. The human species has been perfected in its natural qualities by Divine revelation and by the incarnation of the Word, and has been lifted up into a supernatural order, in which alone it can find its temporal and eternal felicity. The treasures of revelation, the treasures of truth, the treasures of righteousness, the treasures of supernatural graces upon earth, have been deposited by God in the hands of one man, who is the sole dispenser and keeper of them. The life-giving work of the Divine incarnation, work of wisdom, of love, of mercy, is ceaselessly continued in the ceaseless action of one man, thereto ordained by Providence. This man is the pope. This is evidently implied in his designation itself, the vicar of Christ. For if he holds the place of Christ upon earth, that means that he continues the work of Christ in the world and is in respect of us what Christ would be if He were here below, Himself visibly governing the Church."

Do you hear these words? Do you take them in? Do you grasp the thought which they express? Do you perceive the main idea and central principle of the Papacy? The pope is not simply man, but "as if God" and "the vicar of God," as God on earth. No wonder the sentence is addressed to every pope on his coronation, "Know thou art the father of princes and kings, and the governor of the world"; no wonder that he is worshipped by cardinals and archbishops and bishops, by priests and monks and nuns innumerable, by all the millions of Catholics throughout the world; no wonder that he has dethroned monarchs and given away kingdoms, dispensed pardons and bestowed indulgences, canonized saints, remitted purgatorial pains, promulgated dogmas, and issued bulls and laws and extravagants, laid empires under interdicts, bestowed benedictions, and uttered anathemas! Who is like unto him on earth? What are great men, philosophers, statesmen, conquerors, princes, kings, and even emperors, of the earth compared to HIM? Their glory is of the earth, earthy; his is from above, it is Divine! He is the representative of Christ, the Creator and Redeemer, the Lord of all.


He is as Christ; he takes the place of Christ. He is as God, as God on earth. This blasphemous notion is the keystone of the entire Papal arch; it is the stupendous axis on which the whole Papal world has rotated for ages and is rotating at this hour.


But to complete this very brief sketch of the history of Romanism, I may just remind you that the long and checkered decline of Papal dominion may be dated from the pontificate of Boniface VIII, from the end of the thirteenth century. Early in the next century Clement V took the strange and fatal step of removing the seat of Papal government from Rome to Avignon, where it remained for seventy years, greatly to the detriment of its authority and power. There it was to some extent dependent on the court of France, and it also lost the affections of Italy and the prestige of Rome. Then came the great schism which seriously weakened and discredited the Papacy. Rival popes ruled at Rome and Avignon. Corruption and rapacity, demoralization and disaffection rapidly increased, and there supervened that darkest hour of the night which precedes the dawn."

Henry Grattan Guinness, Romanism and the Reformation.
 
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