Is Calvinism Just?

-57 said:

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

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clap clap clap applause ! GREAT AND WONDERFUL SCRIPTURE ! HALLELUYAH! YES!

Does not contradict any other Scripture.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

If you find out that eternal life DOES NOT START until after dying , or at the point of dying, you might learn to understand what Jesus means then, God Willing.
So many people (most people) FORFEIT eternal life, and they all do so in this life on earth.

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1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Other translation...And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Sounds like its given to believers in this life.

-57 said:

1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
Other translation...And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

Sounds like its given to believers in this life.

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Key words in your own post:

"Sounds like"

'nuf said ? (probably not, but proof follows belief; not the other way around)

Dave L said:

Can we use good manners?

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Manners? Calling God a hateful God who who created people to burn with no choice is good manners? Just because a Doctrine of demons is excepted by a large number doesn't make it any less a doctrine of demons.

Dave L said:

What makes you think this?

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Cal·vin·ism
/ˈkalvəˌnizəm/
noun

1. the Protestant theological system of John Calvin and his successors, which develops Luther's doctrine of justification by faith alone and emphasizes the grace of God and the doctrine of predestination.

Dave L said:

Can we use good manners?

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Here is why you are so afflicted Dave, the truth about Calvinism in his own words...

“We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

“The very inequality of his grace proves that it is free.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 6)

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

Skidder said:

Manners? Calling God a hateful God who who created people to burn with no choice is good manners? Just because a Doctrine of demons is excepted by a large number doesn't make it any less a doctrine of demons.

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Just curious....What about the people living in the middle of the jungle 500 years ago who never heard of Jesus Christ?

-57 said:

Just curious....What about the people living in the middle of the jungle 500 years ago who never heard of Jesus Christ?

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That's the same argument used by those who reject Christ, Hmm... Interesting...

I believe everyone has a choice to reject or accept Christ. When? I don't know. But the bible clearly says the Gospel WAS preached to every creature.

Colossians 1:23
if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Do I know when and how this happened? No I don't know, but scripture says it so I believe it.

Skidder said:

Manners? Calling God a hateful God who who created people to burn with no choice is good manners? Just because a Doctrine of demons is excepted by a large number doesn't make it any less a doctrine of demons.

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It is you and I assume all free willers who are calling God a hateful God simply because you feel entitled to Gods mercy somehow. Grace is underserved not deserved as you would have it.

Dave L said:

Here's how I see it. God created Adam perfect. But with a "sovereign" nature in God's image, that would want to sin and enjoy it if given a law. He thereby proved we are a corrupt species and love our sins more than we love God. In fact we hate him. So hell is fitting punishment for sins of this magnitude.

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So God created Adam in a way that he would have no other choice but to sin? And then condemned him for doing what he was programmed to do?

MDC said:

It is you and I assume all free willers who are calling God a hateful God simply because you feel entitled to Gods mercy somehow. Grace is underserved not deserved as you would have it.

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John Calvin calls God unjust and hateful by his own comments...

“We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

“The very inequality of his grace proves that it is free.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 6)

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

BNR32FAN said:

I’m going to try to keep the OP short and to the point and we can expound upon this in the thread. The point I want to make is how can God’s judgement be just if Calvin’s theology is true? According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity man is incapable of repenting and believing in God unless God elects them to salvation. Below I have provided a brief description of total depravity from Wikipedia. Now I know that this description may not fit everyone’s view of the doctrine since many people view it in different ways but these can be discussed in the thread.


Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God. Therefore, in reformed theology. if God is to save anyone, he must predestine, call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing him.


The major complication to Calvin’s theology is the doctrine of unconditional election, which I believe fails to take Acts 10:34-35 into consideration.


n Calvinist (Reformed) theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition. This unconditional election is essentially related to the rest of the TULIP doctrinal outline and hinges upon the supreme belief in the absolute sovereignty of God over the affairs of man. God unconditionally elects certain people even though they are sinful as an act of his saving grace apart from the shortcomings or will of man. Those chosen have done nothing to deserve this grace.

In Calvinist and some other churches (Waldensians, Katharoi, Anabaptists, Particular Baptists, etc.) this election has been called "unconditional" because his choice to save the elect does not depend on anything inherent in any person chosen, on any act that a person performs or on any belief that a person exercises. Indeed, according to the doctrine of total depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism, the influence of sin has so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first regenerating the person's soul to give them the ability to love him and take part in the salvation process. Hence, God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God's own independent and sovereign will and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man


So according to Calvin’s theology not only is man incapable of repentance or even believing in God, he is also incapable of doing anything to attain God’s election. This presents us with a huge problem because now God’s election is completely outside of man’s capability of attaining. According to John 3:18 man is judged according to wether or not he believes in Christ, but according to Calvin’s theology man is completely incapable of believing on his own accord in any way and is also incapable of attaining God’s grace that would enable him to believe. So ultimately those who will burn in the lake of fire never had any chance for salvation. God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent not only foreseen this, has the ability to prevent this, but has decreed that the majority of man will be created in this fallen state and punished for all eternity of no fault of their own. Ultimately Calvin’s theology makes God responsible not only for those who will burn in the lake of fire but also responsible for them not coming to repentance since He has intentionally made them in this fallen and incapable state. With that said, how can God’s judgement and punishment be just if this was of His doing and man never had any choice in the matter?

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The fundamental flaw in the argument is this: God did not create Adam a sinner. God created Adam morally neutral. Adam had neither spiritual life (he was created with a spirit) nor the knowing of good and evil. Adam had a choice. He could have eaten from the Tree of Life. He would have been completed, he would have known God intuitively and he would have been immune to temptation. As we know, Adam chose to eat from the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil.

God's warning was that the fruit of the tree of knowledge was deadly. Adam ate anyway. He became separated from God immediately. He hid himself and covered up. That is the story of mankind ever since. We are born hiding from God and covering up. Adam did not die physically or in the soul realm. he lived for nearly 1,000 years. So what died? It was his spirit man. The spirit is where God dwells as God is Spirit. God will not inhabit a dead spirit. So all seems lost. How can a dead man respond to God? How can a man who is innately hostile repent and believe?

Man is responsible for his own sin. The Bible tells us that we were in Adam when he rebelled against God. So we partook of Adam's sin before we were physically born. We have no right to question God. We have no right to complain against God's justice, judgements or punishments. He is all wise, all knowing and He is love. That we do complain proves that we are sinners.

One of the self deceptions is that we are basically good. There is an element of truth, which is why it is so deceptive. The Tree Adam ate from is both good and evil. The problem is not so much that man is good or bad. Man is dead. And there is nothing that we can do to change it.

What now? If I was God, I would have scratched Adam and Eve and started again. In way, God has done just that. Lord Jesus came to earth to be Man, not God. He is called the "Last Adam". He obeyed God perfectly and resisted Satan's temptation. Then Lord Jesus went to the cross and died there. As Adam represented the whole of humanity, so the Lord Jesus tasted death for every man The Lord Jesus rose again from the dead. When He did that, He formed a whole new race of people, the Christians. "Eve" is now the Church. The church is that which is of Christ, no more and no less.

God need not have done any of this. He could have left the descendants of Adam to their own ways and watched us self-destruct. We are doing a fine job of that right now. But as Noah's ark was a refuge for the righteous so the Lord Jesus is the "Ark" for those who desire to escape the coming judgement. God provided this great salvation because He loves us. To imply that God is responsible for man's condition is blasphemous.

Some accept God's salvation, most do not. Before a person can accept, he must be convicted of his sin. Then he must repent. He must see Lord Jesus as his only hope before God. It is the job of the Holy Spirit to convict of sin. Whenever the gospel is preached, the Holy Spirit is there. God's word has the mighty power to penetrate the darkness of man's mind. The hearer must choose to accept God's salvation. The hearer must be prepared to turn away from his former way of life. The modern "gospel" is frequently a pale shadow of what needs to be preached.

Predestination is according to God's foreknowledge. God is sovereign, God is just, righteous and perfect in all His ways. Who dares to call God to account? Only an ignorant fool. Who can complain about a God who would give His own Son to die for those who hate and reject Him? Only an ignorant fool. I was one of those ignorant fools. I don't know why God gave me opportunities to hear the gospel and saved me. I am eternally grateful. I don't know who will accept Christ and who will not. So I preach the gospel when I get the opportunity.

Mankind has nothing inherently that draws him to God. The opposite. I know this to be true in my own life, before I was born again. How and who God chooses to save is His business. I trust God. If not for His love, mercy and grace, no one would be saved. Let's turn our question around. Why would God bother to save even one sinner! But He did. At the cost of the life of His own Son.

-57 said:

Acts 16:14 strongly disagree with your view...Among those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

If God didn't open Lydias heart she would not be a believer in Jesus.

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Nobody would. But God convicts all. This says nothing about her having to accept salvation.

renniks said:

So God created Adam in a way that he would have no other choice but to sin? And then condemned him for doing what he was programmed to do?

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No. Adam had entirely free will. He chose badly. Adam was not programmed.

Aussie Pete said:

No. Adam had entirely free will. He chose badly. Adam was not programmed.

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According to some calvinists, God rendered the fall of man certain.

Kate30 said:

And that is why does God choose to save some while passing over others leaving them in their condemned plight. We do not fully know. John Calvin merely confirms what the Apostle Paul and the Holy Scripture does say on the matter nothing more nothing less

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Wow, funny how the majority of Christiandom down through the ages don't get that from scripture. God doesn't pass over anyone. He offers salvation to all.

Kate30 said:

And that is why does God choose to save some while passing over others leaving them in their condemned plight. We do not fully know.

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We know as God has Revealed this.

Remember who was spared their first born in Egypt?
WHoever put blood on their doorposts as directed (not just Jews, but even Egyptians and other people of other nations, whoever did as Yahuweh Directed the Jews, their firstborn was spared instead of killed that night) ....

"Whosoever comes to Jesus, He will in no wise cast out. "

They could be of any denomination, of any religion, of any school, of any nation, of any people anywhere.

renniks said:

So God created Adam in a way that he would have no other choice but to sin? And then condemned him for doing what he was programmed to do?

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What did the potter say to the clay in Scripture ?
(or was it what did the potter do with the clay? (probably) )

He does what He wants. The clay won't do anything.

Skidder said:

John Calvin calls God unjust and hateful by his own comments...

“We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

“The very inequality of his grace proves that it is free.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 6)

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

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No, that’s what you are calling God according to how you interpret what Calvin is saying