BNR32FAN

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How does a pot design itself? Peter here is addressing the church.. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This entire chapter is written to the "beloved" it is intended for the elect . God is withholding His wrath and judgement until the last of the elect come. He bears with the sins of the reprobate until the last of His people come .

That is an incorrect translation. The word us is actually you (G4771). In any case 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says the same thing except Paul says God desires all men to be saved.

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Dave L

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She was a worshiper of God, which is why God opened her heart.

I have realized through reading the Bible that God will only supernaturally open, harden, or make stubborn our hearts if we first choose them (see Exodus 1 [starting in verse 8, the new pharaoh makes the choice to oppress the Israelites], in Exodus 5, the pharaoh refuses to free the Israelites and increases their oppression, and so in Exodus 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 14, God supernaturally hardens his heart, because God knew that the pharaoh refused to change).

Lydia first chose to open her heart to God, therefore God supernaturally opened it to receive Paul's message.
Most all the Jews who converted to the New Covenant were born again just like Abraham.
 
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Dave L

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That is an incorrect translation. The word us is actually you (G4771). In any case 1 Timothy 2:3-4 says the same thing except Paul says God desires all men to be saved.

“This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬
All men = gentiles, not just Jews, to fulfill the promise to Abraham. Jesus told the Pharisees in John 10 he didn't die for them.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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How does a pot design itself?
How does a pot rebel and then deserve to be smashed? How does a pot make little pots? We can go on and on about how the metaphor isn’t universally describing us.
Peter here is addressing the church.. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Long suffering means he waits patiently until the point where it’s over. No more waiting necessary and the choice of the person stands.
This entire chapter is written to the "beloved" it is intended for the elect
Why does it mention his long suffering? That refers to the unsaved.
God is withholding His wrath and judgement until the last of the elect come. He bears with the sins of the reprobate until the last of His people come .
The rest he doesnt give a rap about?? How come “that not ANY should perish” doesn’t mean any anymore??
 
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Gup20

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The most salient scriptures on the doctrine of Calvinism can be found in Deuteronomy 30. The apostle Paul says of Deuteronomy 30:

[Rom 10:1, 3-11 NASB] 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for [their] salvation. ... 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

So in wanting to describe how salvation by faith works, Paul quotes heavily from Deuteronomy 30. What does Deutermonomy 30 say about Salvation?

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Deuteronomy 30 says 3 times that salvation is a choice that God sets before man... not a choice God makes for man. In fact, He says "it is not in heaven" and he says "it is not too difficult for you nor out of reach." In other words, Total Depravity is a total sham. We know that this is talking about the salvation by faith, not salvation by works or the Law because A) Paul directly tells us so in Romans 10 when quoting it, and B) Deuteronomy 30:6 talks about "circumcision of the heart" which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Rom 4:9-13, 16 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,​

Above we see that faith and righteousness happen BEFORE circumcision. Circumcision, according to Romans 2 represents the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is a Seal of the righteousness you have already obtained. Further, we know from Ephesians and Acts that the indwelling comes AFTER one believes... not before.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Act 11:16-17 NASB] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​
 
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BNR32FAN

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Hebrews 6 cannot be understood apart from Limited Atonement.

That is, Christ died only for the elect and these will not fall away.

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

But others who fall away, were not the elect. So God would need to elect them for salvation, Christ would need to return to the cross to redeem them, before they could repent and experience salvation. Which is impossible according to the passage.

They have been enlightened, tastes of the heavenly gift (grace) and have partaken if the Holy Spirit. How did someone who was not elected happen to accomplish all this?
 
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-57

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Correct. Calvinism presents God as totally unjust. The worst part of the theory is what itdiestk those who hold it after a time. They become either irrational in their faith, that is, they cannot possibly understand God or they become like the God they believe is there, hard towards the fate of others. This is the saddest part.
That reply is totally wrong.
 
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Dave L

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They have been enlightened, tastes of the heavenly gift (grace) and have partaken if the Holy Spirit. How did someone who was not elected happen to accomplish all this?
The gospel, like the OT law saves up to a point based on the laws of sowing and reaping. But salvation is in the New Birth.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The most salient scriptures on the doctrine of Calvinism can be found in Deuteronomy 30. The apostle Paul says of Deuteronomy 30:

[Rom 10:1, 3-11 NASB] 1 Brethren, my heart's desire and my prayer to God for them is for [their] salvation. ... 3 For not knowing about God's righteousness and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6 But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down), 7 or 'WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?' (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." 8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus [as] Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."​

So in wanting to describe how salvation by faith works, Paul quotes heavily from Deuteronomy 30. What does Deutermonomy 30 say about Salvation?

[Deu 30:1, 6, 11-15, 19 NASB] 1 "So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call [them] to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you, ... 6 "Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live. ... 11 "For this commandment which I command you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it out of reach. 12 "It is not in heaven, that you should say, 'Who will go up to heaven for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 13 "Nor is it beyond the sea, that you should say, 'Who will cross the sea for us to get it for us and make us hear it, that we may observe it?' 14 "But the word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may observe it. 15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, and death and adversity; ... 19 "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants,​

Deuteronomy 30 says 3 times that salvation is a choice that God sets before man... not a choice God makes for man. In fact, He says "it is not in heaven" and he says "it is not too difficult for you nor out of reach." In other words, Total Depravity is a total sham. We know that this is talking about the salvation by faith, not salvation by works or the Law because A) Paul directly tells us so in Romans 10 when quoting it, and B) Deuteronomy 30:6 talks about "circumcision of the heart" which is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

[Rom 2:28-29 NASB] 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

[Rom 4:9-13, 16 NASB] 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. ... 16 For this reason [it is] by faith, in order that [it may be] in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,​

Above we see that faith and righteousness happen BEFORE circumcision. Circumcision, according to Romans 2 represents the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is a Seal of the righteousness you have already obtained. Further, we know from Ephesians and Acts that the indwelling comes AFTER one believes... not before.

[Eph 1:13-14 NASB] 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of [God's own] possession, to the praise of His glory.

[Act 11:16-17 NASB] 16 "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 "Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as [He gave] to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God's way?"​

I’m not certain that total depravity is a sham but more leaning towards unconditional grace as being the sham. I agree that we inherited Adam’s sinful nature but God in His effort to save as many as possible enables everyone who will repent to do so. Our fate must ultimately be in our hands otherwise God’s judgement is unjust.
 
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Dave L

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I’m not certain that total depravity is a sham but more leaning towards unconditional grace as being the sham. I agree that we inherited Adam’s sinful nature but God in His effort to save as many as possible enables everyone who will repent to do so. Our fate must ultimately be in our hands otherwise God’s judgement is unjust.
We are spiritually dead and cannot discern Christ in truth.
“That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” John 3:6 (KJV 1900)
 
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-57

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They have been enlightened, tastes of the heavenly gift (grace) and have partaken if the Holy Spirit. How did someone who was not elected happen to accomplish all this?

There are many who are not saved who have once been enlightened....which many believe means have heard tthe gospel.

Who have tasted the heavenly gift....been blessed in one way or another by God who has blessed church.

Have shared in the Holy Spirit,....taking communion may be one of the things talked about here.

Have tasted the goodness of the word of God....received
Notice God did not prepare the vessels of wrath but merely endured them. So who prepares them? The vessels of wrath prepares themselves by numerous choices and rejection of his calling on them. It is his will that none perish but that all come to eternal life. Some refuse.

What about the individual who lived in the middle of the jungle 500 years ago?
 
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BNR32FAN

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The gospel, like the OT law saves up to a point based on the laws of sowing and reaping. But salvation is in the New Birth.

I’m trying to understand what your saying brother. What do you mean the gospel saves up to a point?
 
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Dave L

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I’m trying to understand what your saying brother. What do you mean the gospel saves up to a point?
The gospel causes false believers to live better lives. But if not born again, it doesn't save spiritually.
 
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I’m not certain that total depravity is a sham but more leaning towards unconditional grace as being the sham. I agree that we inherited Adam’s sinful nature but God in His effort to save as many as possible enables everyone who will repent to do so. Our fate must ultimately be in our hands otherwise God’s judgement is unjust.
What does one choose as a reason to repent...to accept Jesus?
 
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