Is Calvinism Just?

Kate30 · Dec 4, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
I believe God will enable every single person who will accept His offer of grace. I believe His election is based on His foreknowledge of who will believe and abide in Christ to the end.

If the enabling is Gods power to save whom he pleases all good and well. But if you mean by his foreknowledge that he only sees into the future to find out who has chosen him than it would be no more by the election of God but by the choice of others.

Dorothy Mae · Dec 4, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
You quoted Romans 9:14 what about verse 22-23? How did God endure with much patience the vessels of wrath?

“If God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction and He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:22-23‬

Notice God did not prepare the vessels of wrath but merely endured them. So who prepares them? The vessels of wrath prepares themselves by numerous choices and rejection of his calling on them. It is his will that none perish but that all come to eternal life. Some refuse.

rnmomof7 · Dec 4, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
In Acts 10:34-35 Peter says that God does not show partiality and that in every nation the man that fears Him and does what is right is accepted, approved, welcome to Him. He doesn’t say the man is appointed, elected, or chosen by Him.

“Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-35‬ ‭NASB‬‬

If unconditional election is true then God would be showing partiality towards the elect.

The scripture says Nations ...spoken to the Jews, that believed they had special access to God that the gentiles did not ...

Dorothy Mae · Dec 4, 2019

Kate30 said:
If the enabling is Gods power to save whom he pleases all good and well. But if you mean by his foreknowledge that he only sees into the future to find out who has chosen him than it would be no more by the election of God but by the choice of others.

It is by our own choices in the end. Each man will stand in judgement for their choices. No man will be able to blame God that they wouldn’t/couldn’t respond.

BNR32FAN · Dec 4, 2019

Albion said:
We are NOT disconnected from Adam and Eve, although you may want to see us as simply appearing in the cabbage patch somehow. God created the human RACE, and we are part of it. The Jews certainly understood this. See Exodus 20:5 and Exodus 34:7, for example.

No I completely agree that we inherited their sinful nature but I disagree that we are unable to find favor with God. Genesis 6:8 Noah found favor with God. There are many other passages in the scriptures where men find favor with God.

“The LORD favors those who fear Him, Those who wait for His lovingkindness.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭147:11‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Very similar to Acts 10:35.

“My son, do not forget my teaching, But let your heart keep my commandments; For length of days and years of life And peace they will add to you. Do not let kindness and truth leave you; Bind them around your neck, Write them on the tablet of your heart. So you will find favor and good repute In the sight of God and man.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭3:1-4‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“He who finds a wife finds a good thing And obtains favor from the LORD.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭18:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"Now therefore, O sons, listen to me, For blessed are they who keep my ways. "Heed instruction and be wise, And do not neglect it. "Blessed is the man who listens to me, Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at my doorposts. "For he who finds me finds life And obtains favor from the LORD. "But he who sins against me injures himself; All those who hate me love death."”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭8:32-36‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Now therefore, I pray You, if I have found favor in Your sight, let me know Your ways that I may know You, so that I may find favor in Your sight. Consider too, that this nation is Your people." And He said, "My presence shall go with you, and I will give you rest." Then he said to Him, "If Your presence does not go with us, do not lead us up from here. For how then can it be known that I have found favor in Your sight, I and Your people? Is it not by Your going with us, so that we, I and Your people, may be distinguished from all the other people who are upon the face of the earth?" The LORD said to Moses, "I will also do this thing of which you have spoken; for you have found favor in My sight and I have known you by name."”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭33:13-17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Now the boy Samuel was growing in stature and in favor both with the LORD and with men.”
‭‭1 Samuel‬ ‭2:26‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“Saul sent to Jesse, saying, "Let David now stand before me, for he has found favor in my sight."”
‭‭1 Samuel‬ ‭16:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“A good man will obtain favor from the LORD, But He will condemn a man who devises evil.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭NASB‬‬

BNR32FAN · Dec 4, 2019

rnmomof7 said:
The scripture says Nations ...spoken to the Jews, that believed they had special access to God that the gentiles did not ...

It says in every nation the MAN who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. It doesn’t say the nation is welcome but the man in every nation.

Albion · Dec 4, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
No I completely agree that we inherited their sinful nature but I disagree that we are unable to find favor with God. Genesis 6:8 Noah found favor with God. There are many other passages in the scriptures where men find favor with God.

No one doubts that the Elect find favor with God.

rnmomof7 · Dec 4, 2019

Dorothy Mae said:
Notice God did not prepare the vessels of wrath but merely endured them. So who prepares them? The vessels of wrath prepares themselves by numerous choices and rejection of his calling on them. It is his will that none perish but that all come to eternal life. Some refuse.

How does a pot design itself? Peter here is addressing the church.. "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This entire chapter is written to the "beloved" it is intended for the elect . God is withholding His wrath and judgement until the last of the elect come. He bears with the sins of the reprobate until the last of His people come .

BNR32FAN · Dec 4, 2019

bling said:
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?

Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?

Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?

Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.

Finally someone understands verse 22!! God could not have endured much patience in the vessels for destruction if He had originally created them for the sole purpose of destruction. Of course God had already foreseen their disobedience before creation but He could not have had patience on them without first withstanding their repeated disobedience. So in essence they destroyed themselves.

Kate30 · Dec 4, 2019

Dorethy the bible says that all of humanity was already dead to God because of sin. Already judged and condemned by the courtroom of God Romans chapter 1 . So no one will be saying any such thing about not being able to respond come judgement day.

BNR32FAN · Dec 4, 2019

Albion said:
No one doubts that the Elect find favor with God.

“A good man will obtain favor from the LORD, But He will condemn a man who devises evil.”
‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭NASB

It says a good man will find favor not a favored man will be good.

Dave L · Dec 4, 2019

Skidder said:
I know this post will probably fester a few KJV purists, but oh well...

Why don't your read that in another translation? Most of the other translations, including NKJV, translate the Greek "being saved" which makes more sense. If that translation was correct no one could ever be saved. It would be foolishness for everyone, but the saved. Those who are perishing are those who reject the cross, unto death, and they will surely die in their sins.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. -NKJV

I'm not against the KJV, but I've studied the Greek, and I believe the KJV is incorrect with that verse. Salvation is more than just past tense, but also present and offered TO ALL. Those who will believe (according to His foreknowledge) are BEING SAVED from the penalty of sin everyday by faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and through that same precious love story WE (Christians) are also BEING SAVED from the POWER OF SIN as we continue to reckon a GRACE THAT IS SUFFICIENT. The cross of Christ if freedom from both: the PENALTY of sin, and the everyday POWER of sin. So yes everyday we are BEING SAVED saved through faith in Christ Crucified, and also unbelievers (those who will eventually believe, who don't find the cross foolish) are also BEING SAVED from the penalty of sin by that same precious love story. Again I'm not against the KJV, for it is still one of the most accurate, but I don't agree with the translation in this particular verse.

Foreknowledge is the key to freedom from Calvinism. God knows who will believe and who will not, but that doesn't mean he takes away their choice, and doesn't keep convicting them of their sin UNTO faith in Christ...

John 16:8-9
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;

“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (NASB95)

“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (ESV)

“The teaching about the cross is foolishness to those who are being lost, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (NCV)

Dave L · Dec 4, 2019

bling said:
Christ is perfect, Adam and Eve were made "very good", but they were not clones of Christ since Christ was not made and they were for one thing.

God created us in his image. What's wrong with that?

Skidder · Dec 4, 2019

Dave L said:
“For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (NASB95)

“For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (ESV)

“The teaching about the cross is foolishness to those who are being lost, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (NCV)

Yes, I agree. "Being saved" on all three. Thanks.

Dave L · Dec 4, 2019

Skidder said:
Yes, I agree. "Being saved" on all three. Thanks.

"perishing"

Dave L · Dec 4, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
How does this line up with Hebrews 6:4-8?

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Hebrews 6 cannot be understood apart from Limited Atonement.

That is, Christ died only for the elect and these will not fall away.

“No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.” 1 John 3:9 (NASB95)

But others who fall away, were not the elect. So God would need to elect them for salvation, Christ would need to return to the cross to redeem them, before they could repent and experience salvation. Which is impossible according to the passage.

Dave L · Dec 4, 2019

ByTheSpirit said:
This is true, but the conflict between Calvinism and the gospel is, Calvin says a person is saved by a sovereign act of election by God alone. So all those scriptures that state, believe, believe, believe, are just nonsense because man (according to Calvin) cannot believe. Man is elected. All the untold multitudes who arent "elected" never even have the chance to believe, and thus the conflict.

God desires all to repent, not just a select few.

You are reading these passages as law and obedience = works.
They are the identifiers of those God saves. We are not saved because we believe. We believe because we are saved.

Dave L · Dec 4, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
But is do they perish because the cross is foolishness to them or is the cross foolishness to them because they perish? Same with those who are saved, do we understand that the cross the power of God because we are saved or are we saved because we understand that the cross is the power of God?

Unless born again you cannot see the Kingdom (salvation).

aiki · Dec 4, 2019

www.soteriology101.com
www.reasonablefaith.org Search: "Molinism"

TrustNHim9119 · Dec 4, 2019

-57 said:
Acts 16:14 strongly disagree with your view...Among those listening was a woman named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth from the city of Thyatira, who was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

If God didn't open Lydias heart she would not be a believer in Jesus.

She was a worshiper of God, which is why God opened her heart.

I have realized through reading the Bible that God will only supernaturally open, harden, or make stubborn our hearts if we first choose them (see Exodus 1 [starting in verse 8, the new pharaoh makes the choice to oppress the Israelites], in Exodus 5, the pharaoh refuses to free the Israelites and increases their oppression, and so in Exodus 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, and 14, God supernaturally hardens his heart, because God knew that the pharaoh refused to change).

Lydia first chose to open her heart to God, therefore God supernaturally opened it to receive Paul's message.

Is Calvinism Just?

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