ByTheSpirit

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Here's how I see it. God created Adam perfect. But with a "sovereign" nature in God's image, that would want to sin and enjoy it if given a law. He thereby proved we are a corrupt species and love our sins more than we love God. In fact we hate him. So hell is fitting punishment for sins of this magnitude.

This is true, but the conflict between Calvinism and the gospel is, Calvin says a person is saved by a sovereign act of election by God alone. So all those scriptures that state, believe, believe, believe, are just nonsense because man (according to Calvin) cannot believe. Man is elected. All the untold multitudes who arent "elected" never even have the chance to believe, and thus the conflict.

God desires all to repent, not just a select few.
 
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BNR32FAN

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“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

How does this line up with Hebrews 6:4-8?

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬
 
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Kate30

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The Op’s Summary is a fair analysis except for maybe the question of belief, for all do believe and do know of God to some degree. Even the devils and the atheist do know this as much they would like to deny. It’s the age old question being asked here once more. And that is why does God choose to save some while passing over others leaving them in their condemned plight. We do not fully know. John Calvin merely confirms what the Apostle Paul and the Holy Scripture does say on the matter nothing more nothing less. But we do know that it is God that clearly chooses. ( For He has chosen us and we not him ) as the Scripture clearly says. Arthur Pinks book ( mans total depravity ) may be of some help to those who would like to enquire deeper to see if God is really jUST in doing so.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Ive not read all of your thread but enough to say that your correct about needing to experience God’s Love First before you can be born again. You must ultimately put all of your faith in God and His Goodness. Even Christ did not consider Himself to be good.


Mark.10

  1. [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
When you are Truly born again, you will absolutely positively know it and you won’t forget it.

Actually I believe He said this because they didn’t know He is God. I don’t believe Christ was saying that He is not good, because He is God and God is good all the time. ;)
 
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Kate30

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bling

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What was that about the shepherd who left the ninety-nine to find the one lost sheep? Or was it the sheep who found the shepherd? Under Calvinistic doctrine the shepherd finds the sheep, and not the other way around. They don't stand there and negotiate the sheep's surrender. He doesn't let the sheep continue on its merry way if it doesn't agree to his terms. He goes out, finds it, grabs it under the legs and carries it home. The only thing the sheep did was get lost.
There are four different scenarios in Luke 15:
The coin (it does not know it is lost and does not know the way back, so the woman seeks it out), the sheep (knows it is lost but not the way back, so the shepherd seeks it out) and the younger brother (know he is lost and know the way back, so the father waits for him to come to his senses on his own and hopeful decide to return) and the older brother who thinks he is "doing everything right and not lost", but is really lost.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The Op’s Summary is a fair analysis except for maybe the question of belief, for all do believe and do know of God to some degree. Even the devils and the atheist do know this as much they would like to deny. It’s the age old question being asked here once more. And that is why does God choose to save some while passing over others leaving them in their condemned plight. We do not fully know. John Calvin merely confirms what the Apostle Paul and the Holy Scripture does say on the matter nothing more nothing less. But we do know that it is God that clearly chooses. ( For He has chosen us and we not him ) as the Scripture clearly says. Arthur Pinks book ( mans total depravity ) may be of some help to those who would like to enquire deeper to see if God is really just in doing so.

I believe God will enable every single person who will accept His offer of grace. I believe His election is based on His foreknowledge of who will believe and abide in Christ to the end.
 
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BNR32FAN

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There are four different scenarios in Luke 15:
The coin (it does not know it is lost and does not know the way back, so the woman seeks it out), the sheep (knows it is lost but not the way back, so the shepherd seeks it out) and the younger brother (know he is lost and know the way back, so the father waits for him to come to his senses on his own and hopeful decide to return) and the older brother who thinks he is "doing everything right and not lost", but is really lost.

Interesting perspective thanks for sharing that. I will have to take a closer look at these.
 
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bling

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Vessels of wrath were prepared for destruction as the vessels of mercy were prepared for glory.. Don’t see how this doesn’t answer your question starting with vs 14. Paul basically anticipates your question
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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TrustNHim9119

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No Dave, here's the clincher...
Total depravity must mean total depravity before we can understand the POWER that freed us from total depravity.

If God had to make a person a believer, than the Gospel lacks the power UNTO salvation. So basically Calvinism is a direct attack on the cross of Christ. No choice but to believe, and no choice but to burn is no choice in the cross.

Best response I've seen so far.

So it is just that trillions of people who had absolutely nothing to do with Adam and Eve’s sin will burn in the lake of fire for all eternity?

Everyone has had the ability to choose to serve God. God knows if we are truly seeking Him (it may be how I came to be saved, where I was genuinely seeking truth, not even knowing at the time that God is truth), and He will always provide a way for us to recieve salvation and have a relationship with Him.

There is no excuse.
 
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I believe God will enable every single person who will accept His offer of grace. I believe His election is based on His foreknowledge of who will believe and abide in Christ to the end.
Why would that deserve to be described as "election" at all?
 
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Daniel C

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How does this line up with Hebrews 6:4-8?

“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God; but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-8‬ ‭NASB‬‬


If a person receives the message of the Gospel and rejects it there are no more opportunities for them to be saved. Reprobate.
 
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bling

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Romans 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”




John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

Romans 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.



I'll post the verse fo you.
Acts 10:34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: “Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him.




Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Eph 1:1 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Eph 1:5 He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,




Romans 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—




John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.


The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!


This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).


Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?


If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?


This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is written to Christians and not non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant when it comes to what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in first century Rome?


Are there issues and problems with being a first century Jew and was this a problem for Paul?


The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9: 22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potter’s signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.

Important to note is the fact: the dishonorable vessel can cleanse themselves and become vessels of honor.

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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bling

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Here's how I see it. God created Adam perfect. But with a "sovereign" nature in God's image, that would want to sin and enjoy it if given a law. He thereby proved we are a corrupt species and love our sins more than we love God. In fact we hate him. So hell is fitting punishment for sins of this magnitude.
Christ is perfect, Adam and Eve were made "very good", but they were not clones of Christ since Christ was not made and they were for one thing.
 
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Skidder

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“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 1:18 (KJV 1900)
I know this post will probably fester a few KJV purists, but oh well...

Why don't your read that in another translation? Most of the other translations, including NKJV, translate the Greek "being saved" which makes more sense. If that translation was correct no one could ever be saved. It would be foolishness for everyone, but the saved. Those who are perishing are those who reject the cross, unto death, and they will surely die in their sins.

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. -NKJV

I'm not against the KJV, but I've studied the Greek, and I believe the KJV is incorrect with that verse. Salvation is more than just past tense, but also present and offered TO ALL. Those who will believe (according to His foreknowledge) are BEING SAVED from the penalty of sin everyday by faith in Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and through that same precious love story WE (Christians) are also BEING SAVED from the POWER OF SIN as we continue to reckon a GRACE THAT IS SUFFICIENT. The cross of Christ if freedom from both: the PENALTY of sin, and the everyday POWER of sin. So yes everyday we are BEING SAVED saved through faith in Christ Crucified, and also unbelievers (those who will eventually believe, who don't find the cross foolish) are also BEING SAVED from the penalty of sin by that same precious love story. Again I'm not against the KJV, for it is still one of the most accurate, but I don't agree with the translation in this particular verse.

Foreknowledge is the key to freedom from Calvinism. God knows who will believe and who will not, but that doesn't mean he takes away their choice, and doesn't keep convicting them of their sin UNTO faith in Christ...

John 16:8-9
And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
 
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Ive not read all of your thread but enough to say that your correct about needing to experience God’s Love First before you can be born again. You must ultimately put all of your faith in God and His Goodness. Even Christ did not consider Himself to be good.


Mark.10

  1. [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
When you are Truly born again, you will absolutely positively know it and you won’t forget it.

There are many who use this verse out of context to present a view that Jesus isn't God. I believe you have also taken the verse out of context when you say Jesus didn't think He was good.
 
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Dorothy Mae

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I’m going to try to keep the OP short and to the point and we can expound upon this in the thread. The point I want to make is how can God’s judgement be just if Calvin’s theology is true? According to Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity man is incapable of repenting and believing in God unless God elects them to salvation. Below I have provided a brief description of total depravity from Wikipedia. Now I know that this description may not fit everyone’s view of the doctrine since many people view it in different ways but these can be discussed in the thread.


Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule. Even religion and philanthropy are wicked to God because they originate from a selfish human desire and are not done to the glory of God. Therefore, in reformed theology. if God is to save anyone, he must predestine, call, or elect individuals to salvation since fallen man does not want to, and is indeed incapable of, choosing him.


The major complication to Calvin’s theology is the doctrine of unconditional election, which I believe fails to take Acts 10:34-35 into consideration.


n Calvinist (Reformed) theology, unconditional election is considered to be one aspect of predestination in which God chooses certain individuals to be saved. Those elected receive mercy, while those not elected, the reprobates, receive justice without condition. This unconditional election is essentially related to the rest of the TULIP doctrinal outline and hinges upon the supreme belief in the absolute sovereignty of God over the affairs of man. God unconditionally elects certain people even though they are sinful as an act of his saving grace apart from the shortcomings or will of man. Those chosen have done nothing to deserve this grace.

In Calvinist and some other churches (Waldensians, Katharoi, Anabaptists, Particular Baptists, etc.) this election has been called "unconditional" because his choice to save the elect does not depend on anything inherent in any person chosen, on any act that a person performs or on any belief that a person exercises. Indeed, according to the doctrine of total depravity (the first of the five points of Calvinism, the influence of sin has so inhibited the individual's volition that no one is willing or able to come to or follow God apart from God first regenerating the person's soul to give them the ability to love him and take part in the salvation process. Hence, God’s choice in election is and can only be based solely on God's own independent and sovereign will and [not] upon the foreseen actions of man


So according to Calvin’s theology not only is man incapable of repentance or even believing in God, he is also incapable of doing anything to attain God’s election. This presents us with a huge problem because now God’s election is completely outside of man’s capability of attaining. According to John 3:18 man is judged according to wether or not he believes in Christ, but according to Calvin’s theology man is completely incapable of believing on his own accord in any way and is also incapable of attaining God’s grace that would enable him to believe. So ultimately those who will burn in the lake of fire never had any chance for salvation. God being omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent not only foreseen this, has the ability to prevent this, but has decreed that the majority of man will be created in this fallen state and punished for all eternity of no fault of their own. Ultimately Calvin’s theology makes God responsible not only for those who will burn in the lake of fire but also responsible for them not coming to repentance since He has intentionally made them in this fallen and incapable state. With that said, how can God’s judgement and punishment be just if this was of His doing and man never had any choice in the matter?
Correct. Calvinism presents God as totally unjust. The worst part of the theory is what itdiestk those who hold it after a time. They become either irrational in their faith, that is, they cannot possibly understand God or they become like the God they believe is there, hard towards the fate of others. This is the saddest part.
 
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