My Jesus Challenge

the iconoclast said:

So what outcome do you hope to achieve by supplying a riddle with no solution and engaging me - considering you agree with jane and my approach is laughable?

Cheers

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I guess none.

Be well.

the iconoclast said:

Hey hey thank you for your replies

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Likewise.

Usually i like ppl to explain themselves, however you do not wanna get caught.

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How so? Do you believe this because perhaps my answers may not fit comfortably within your existing worldview?

I would love a yes or no answer at this stage.

So to escape the wheel one must stop suffering, suffering is action and action is in conflict with nirvana?

Yes or no?

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You are asking a question which requires an analytical answer, rather than a categorical one.

To answer your question analytically: Yes, but please keep in mind that the Buddhist Path (which involves Right Action - one of the factors of the Eightfold Path) is not the Destination (nibbana).

AV1611VET said:

Is the Biblical Jesus Christ a man-made invention?

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I dont know.

How could I know? The opportunity to compare the gospels to the actual man is long gone.

It's impossible to fabricate the gospels, and to fabricate Jesus, this is one of the arguments of Quran, but Muslims think Gospels are extreme or polytheistic because despite the warnings of Quran, for all holy books they rely on human interpretation and are not vigilant against translations and are ever hasty in seeing it with sorcery from Iblis and his army of humans and Jinn.

The gospels minus Paul, the gospels are definitely from God with maybe a mistake here or two, that I'm not aware of as of yet, but definitely they are from God and most of it is intact.

If anyone thinks there is anything that contradicts my beliefs in the gospels, bring it up. It took me a long time of avoiding them, because I Thought they were as Christians say they were, but now I See them for the majestic wonders they are.

durangodawood said:

I dont know.

How could I know? The opportunity to compare the gospels to the actual man is long gone.

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Come to think of it.... was there ever an opportunity to compare the gospels to a living memory of the man?

durangodawood said:

Come to think of it.... was there ever an opportunity to compare the gospels to a living memory of the man?

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God's book are guidance, it will not subject to knowing it's true, through limited subjective and often misguided methods of humans, such as their analysis of history and historical facts. If all historians agreed Jesus was a real person and also confirmed his miracles, it would not prove it, and if they all agreed his existence is fictional and impossible to be real, it would not disprove the Bible.

The Bible over all, remains true to the thesis, which most humans including Muslims, Christians, and Jews are yet to accept. They are to follow those who are the true names of God but they are following those who name themselves with the name of God rather then those who God chooses and his name himself through them.

AV1611VET said:

Is the Biblical Jesus Christ a man-made invention?

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There is a common thought that the Roman empire created this idea of Jesus. But I am going to show you some proofs concerning Jesus was real from cultures that never would collaborate with the likes of Rome, like the Muslims and the Greeks. The absolute beauty of ancient historians!!

First off, most Jews deny the existence of Christ Jesus (Yeshua). So naturally, one would believe they never wrote about Him, since they claim e never existed. But we do actually find evidence that ancient Jews not only recognized Him, but what they did write was concerning His death. They mentioned He was hanged, which is an ancient term for crucified!!

From the Babylonian Talmud:

On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald ... cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."[21]




((The evidence from the Greeks is as concrete as literal cement!!))

Lucian : he was a Greek satirist:

The Christians ... worship a man to this day – the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.... [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.[27]

More from Lucian:

“He was second only to that one whom they still worship today, the man in Palestine who was crucified because he brought this new form of initiation into the world.”

“Having convinced themselves that they are immortal and will live forever, the poor wretches despise death and most willingly give themselves to it. Moreover, that first lawgiver of theirs persuaded them that they are all brothers the moment they transgress and deny the Greek gods and begin worshiping that crucified sophist and living by his laws.”

“They scorn all possessions without distinction and treat them as community property. They accept such things on faith alone, without any evidence. So if a fraudulent and cunning person who knows how to take advantage of a situation comes among them, he can make himself rich in a short time.”
https://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient-evidence-for-jesus-from-non-christian-sources#_edn27

These particular passages prove several things:
Christ was a man
He was crucified
speaks about being converted into a Christian
speaks about once converted you are brothers in God
they were to deny the pagan deities


Tallus : first century Greek non-Christian historian:

“An eclipse of the sun’unreasonably, as it seems to me (unreasonably of course, because a solar eclipse could not take place at the time of the full moon, and it was at the season of the Paschal full moon that Christ died.”

This particular passage proves as written in the scriptures that when Jesus died the daylight turned to darkness.
Also another proof that Jesus was real by His death


Phlegon : Greek Historian:

"wrote of an eclipse occurring on the day Jesus was crucified"

More proof Jesus was real writing about His death and how darkness covered the day time.


Muslim evidence:

As most know, the Muslims and Jews do not get along and their history go back together the furthest than any other cultures. Both peoples beliefs began from one man, Abraham. Abraham had several children but it was his first 2 sons that set the course between the Jews and Muslims. But what does that have to do with proof of Jesus?

As I mentioned in the 2nd paragraph, the Jews confirm Yeshua (Jesus) was both real and was hanged to death (crucified).

But ironically, the cousin and number one enemy of the Jews, the Muslims, write of Jesus in their Koran 93 different times!!

In Islam, ʿĪsā ibn Maryam, or Jesus, is understood to be the penultimate prophet and messenger of God and al-Masih, the Arabic term for Messiah, sent to guide the Children of Israel with a new revelation: al-Injīl. Jesus is believed to be a prophet who neither married nor had any children and is reflected as a significant figure, being found in the Quran in 93 verses with various titles attached such as "Son of Mary" and other relational terms.





As you can clearly see, there is solid evidence from outside ancient cultures proving there really was a Jesus, people believed Him to be God or from God, He was crucified, darkness swept over the land at the time of His death as written in the Holy Bible, His converts or followers were known as Christians.

But the biggest shock is the Greek proof. Clearly if Jesus was fake, no ancient Greek would waste their time writing of Him. But there are 5 solid ancient Greek historians during the time of Christ who did choose to write about Him. They even provide information they were not followers, but that Jesus was real and had many followers.

So, to answer your question concerning is there proof Jesus existed?
The answer would be a definite "YES!!"

AV1611VET said:

Is the Biblical Jesus Christ a man-made invention?

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Great thread Phil.
How are you?

AskTheFamily said:

It's impossible to fabricate the gospels, and to fabricate Jesus, this is one of the arguments of Quran, but Muslims think Gospels are extreme or polytheistic because despite the warnings of Quran, for all holy books they rely on human interpretation and are not vigilant against translations and are ever hasty in seeing it with sorcery from Iblis and his army of humans and Jinn.

The gospels minus Paul, the gospels are definitely from God with maybe a mistake here or two, that I'm not aware of as of yet, but definitely they are from God and most of it is intact.

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AskTheFamily said:

If anyone thinks there is anything that contradicts my beliefs in the gospels, bring it up. It took me a long time of avoiding them, because I Thought they were as Christians say they were, but now I See them for the majestic wonders they are.

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dlamberth said:

I'm feel quite sure that a real person named Jesus existed. But he was the son of God only in the sense that each and every one of us is the son of God.

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Indeed

https://www.quora.com/Which-events-occur-in-all-four-gospels
Which events occur in all four gospels?

All for gospels have:

• 
  
  
  • Jesus's baptism (Matt 3:13–17, Mark 1:9–11, Luke 3:21–22, and John 1:31–34)
  • Jesus leaves Judea and goes to Galilee (Matt 4:12, Mark 1:14, Luke 4:14, and John 4:1–3)
  • Jesus returns to Galilee and preaches (Matt 4:12, 17; Mark 1:14–15; Luke 4:14–15; John 4:43–45)
  • Passover at Bethsaida and feeding the five thousand (Matt 14:13–21, Mark 6:30–44, Luke 9:10–17, John 6:1–14)
  • Triumphal entry (Matt 21:6–11, Mark 11:7–11, Luke 19:35–38, John 12:12–18)
  • Last supper (start, and some of the teachings during it) (Matt 26:20–29, Mark 14:17–25, Luke 22:13–30, John 13:1–35)
  • Jesus and the disciples go to the Mount of Olives, and Jesus tells Peter he will deny Him (Matt 26:30–35; Mark 14:26–31; Luke 22:31–39; John 13:36–38, 14:31)
  • Jesus's suffering and prayers (Matt 26:36–46, Mark 14:32–42, Luke 22:40–46, John 18:1)
  • Judas's betrayal, Peter's cutting of an ear, and Jesus's arrest (Matt 26:47–57, Mark 14:43-52, Luke 22:47-54, John 18:2–12)
  • Hearing before chief priests (Matt 26:57–68; Mark 14:53–65; Luke 22:54; John 18:13–16, 19–24)
  • Peter denies (Matt 26:69–75; Mark 14:66–72; Luke 22:55–62; John 18:17–18, 25–27)
  • Hearing before Caiaphas (Matt 27:1; Mark 15:1; Luke 22:66–71; John 18:24, 28)
  • First hearing before Pilate (Matt 27:2, 11–14; Mark 15:1–5; Luke 23:1–6; John 18:28–38)
  • Barabbas released (Matt 27:15–21, 26; Mark 15:6–15; Luke 23:18–25; John 18:39–40)
  • Jesus taken to Golgotha and the crucifixion (Matt 27:32–44, Mark 15:20–33, Luke 23:26–43, John 19:13–22)
  • Soldiers cast lots for Jesus's clothes (Matt 27:35, Mark 15:24, Luke 23:34, John 19:23–24)
  • Jesus's death and burial (Matt 27:46–50, 57–61; Mark 15:37, 42–47; Luke 23:46, 50–56; John 19:28–30, 38–42)
  • Women find open tomb and run to tell the apostles (Matt 28:1, 8; Mark 16:1–4, 8; Luke 24:1–2, 9–11; John 20:1–2, 18)

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There is also these verses, including the baptism and transfiguration on the Mount:

Isaiah 42:1
Here is My Servant, whom I uphold, My Chosen One, in whom My soul delights. I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will bring justice to the nations.

Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased!"

Matthew 12:18
"Here is My servant, whom I have chosen, My beloved, in whom My soul delights. I will put My Spirit on Him, and He will proclaim justice to the nations.

Matthew 17:5 Still of-Him speaking, behold! a luminous cloud overshadows them and behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying "this is the Son of Me, the Beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!".

Mark 1:11
And a voice came from heaven: "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."

Mark 9:7 And became a cloud overshadowing to them and came a voice out of the cloud saying 'this is the Son of Me, the Beloved, be ye hearing Him!

Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended on Him in a bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased."

Luke 9:35 And a Voice became out of the clould saying "this is the Son of Me the One having been chosen, be hearing Him!

John 12:28
Father, glorify Your name!" Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again."

2 Peter 1:17
For He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to Him from the Majestic Glory, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
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And finally in the book of Revelation where Jesus proclaims to the 7 Assemblies that He is the Son of God:

Revelation 2:18 And to the Messenger of the assembly in Thyatira, write!
Now this is saying the Son of the GOD, the One having the eyes of Him as flame of fire, and the feet of Him as to burnished-brass.

ananda said:

I've no idea, I'm ultimately agnostic on that question.

However, I will say that if he was truly almighty god, he could've done a much better job communicating, preserving, and authenticating his message. Therefore, I lean towards "yes", that the Jesus concept was invented by man.

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John 16:25
"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."

I believe that one of the major ways that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is keeping this promise in 2019 is through near death experience accounts.

DennisTate said:

John 16:25
"These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father."

I believe that one of the major ways that Messiah Yeshua - Jesus is keeping this promise in 2019 is through near death experience accounts.

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How does that explain the near-death experience accounts of those who have visions of beings from other religions?

ananda said:

How does that explain the near-death experience accounts of those who have visions of beings from other religions?

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It doesn't, no, not at all. Those ndes (fake Christian experiences, fraudulent) posted now for months? in many threads have been proven false - and even before that, they and the motives of those deceived ones who are exploiting them, including on this thread/ forum, are contrary to all Scripture.

AV1611VET said:

Is the Biblical Jesus Christ a man-made invention?

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"Biblical" is not man-made.

The ndes are either man-made, or man-used deceptions, and not from Heaven nor from God nor in line with Scripture.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

It doesn't, no, not at all. Those ndes (fake Christian experiences, fraudulent) posted now for months? in many threads have been proven false - and even before that, they and the motives of those deceived ones who are exploiting them, including on this thread/ forum, are contrary to all Scripture.

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I don't put much value in private experiences like NDE's. I can't verify them for myself, just like I can't verify for myself similar claims in the rest of the orthodox Bible.

ananda said:

I don't put much value in private experiences like NDE's. I can't verify them for myself, just like I can't verify for myself similar claims in the rest of the orthodox Bible.

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Good. So far, almost all of the ndes posted on this forum have already long ago been proven false, and presented by false teachers/ often for profit in the public publishing world. (the proofs are available if sought for, but not worth the 'trouble' to try to find them all and post them on this forum) (so far) ....
As for the other thoughts you have, The Creator does not expect anyone to verify for themselves similar claims in the rest of the orthodox Bible (actually there are NO similar claims in the Bible) .

yeshuaslavejeff said:

... The Creator does not expect anyone to verify for themselves similar claims in the rest of the orthodox Bible (actually there are NO similar claims in the Bible) .

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I expect it for myself, it is my own personal standard for belief ...

The similar claims in the Bible includes all of the events recorded in the Bible. Just like I can't verify those events people may have experienced in their NDE's, I can't verify those events in the Bible.

ananda said:

I expect it for myself, it is my own personal standard for belief ...

The similar claims in the Bible includes all of the events recorded in the Bible. Just like I can't verify those events people may have experienced in their NDE's, I can't verify those events in the Bible.

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< shrugs > People believe something. Not only not verified, but actually verified false, and people still believe something.