PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

ARBITER01 said:

I would certainly disagree.
They are gifts given to us, GOD doesn't take them back. I can step out at any time and operate in the gift of tongues,

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You disagree???? Good, let's let "iron sharpen iron" to see where/why we disagree. I do agree with what you say above, but only when it is applied to the 'gift of tongues' for my spirit to pray. Even as you said, I too can "step out at any time" and pray the language of 'my spirit' to God. But my spirit isn't The Holy Spirit of God. And the prayer tongue of 'our spirit' isn't the context of chapter 12 which is dealing with the 9 manifesting charisma/gifts FROM the Holy Spirit....not our spirit.

1CO 12:11 But all these (Spirit gifts) worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Question, if I HAD the Holy Spirit's "gift of healing" for others, then why can't I go empty out the hospitals? This is a justified challenge from the anti Charismatics who believe like you just said you do. And you are not alone in that position among Charismatics. I just personally disagree. But I'll let you make your case scripturally, like I will.

I believe this verse 11 is talking about a 'tongue' from the Holy Spirit, as was given on the day of Pentecost. And the Holy Spirit's gift of tongues is not a gift you manifest whenever you will. As the verse above supports, we are talking about a tongue the Spirit gives "as he wills" or 'when He wills' not when we will.

I don't require GOD to hand it to me first before I can. The majority of the gifts do require activation by The Holy Spirit, but they are within us already for His purpose.

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You required Him to hand the "gift/dorea" of prayer tongues of your spirit, to you AFTER being baptized by the Holy Spirit, didn't you? But 'that tongue' isn't a 'charisma gift' it is a 'dorea gift'.

I agree that the "gifts/charisma" FROM the Holy Spirit require an "activation" as you said, or anointing/unction FROM the Holy Spirit first. But I disagree with "majority" and say ALL. Then you must step out in faith to bring that manifestation to pass. I remember the first 'unction' I had in a large home group setting as a young Charismatic, to give a message as a tongues/gift/charisma from the Holy Spirit. But I did not let 'faith' rule. I let 'fear' rule. I feared, what if the person who has the "gift of interpretation" doesn't have 'the faith' speak it? Then I'll look like I didn't really have the 'anointing' to speak in tongues (oh 'young' man of faith that I was ).

1431 dorea: a gratuity

ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift/dorea of the Holy Ghost.

This verse is speaking about supernatural holy spirit POWER being poured out FROM the person of the Holy Spirit of God. The Greek word for "of the" no more means you were getting the 'person' of the Holy Spirit, than that same Greek word means you were getting 'the father' in "the promise OF THE Father". Translators did us a huge injustice, 52 times in the NT, by capitalizing spirit, when it never should have been. And 'that point' is explained in the Companion Study Bible as well as in a book also written a hundred years ago and STILL in print, called "Word Studies On The Holy Spirit".

ACT 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift/dorea of the Holy Ghost.

What "gift/dorea" was Peter talking about? TONGUES from their spirit first, then charisma/gift tongues from the Holy Spirit. That's the way it happened on Pentecost too. The first 'language' to come out was what made the "ungifted/unlearned" unsaved Jews declare 'drunk'. That's because it wasn't the language of the foreigners. They heard those languages every Pentecost. But the first language on Pentecost wasn't 'earthly' it was a 'bestial or artificial' sounding language.

ACT 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance....6 Now when this was noised/phone abroad,...

5456 phone: a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by impl. an address (for any purpose), saying or language

That was the language that drew the crowd. After gathering THEN the Holy Spirit moved upon 'the prayer tongue speaking disciples (from their spirit') to anoint them with the "gift/charisma" from the Holy Spirit to speak to the foreigners.

I know this is a long post, but I have only 'touched' superficially that which really requires a lot more uncovering. I know, because I too once believed as you do ARBITER. This may even be too much to unpack in this medium.

Hillsage said:

You disagree???? Good, let's let "iron sharpen iron" to see where/why we disagree. I do agree with what you say above, but only when it is applied to the 'gift of tongues' for my spirit to pray, even as you said. I too can "step out at any time" and pray the language of 'my spirit' to God. But my spirit isn't The Holy Spirit of God. And the prayer tongue of 'our spirit' isn't the context of chapter 12 which is dealing with the 9 manifesting charisma/gifts FROM the Holy Spirit....not our spirit.

1CO 12:11 But all these (Spirit gifts) worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Question if I HAD the Holy Spirit's "gift of healing" for others, then why can't I go empty out the hospitals? This is a justified challenge from the anti Charismatics who believe like you just said you do. And you are not alone in that position among Charismatics. I just personally disagree. But I'll let you make your case scripturally, like I will.

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Because the gifts are for the body of Christ. We receive grace, they receive mercy if He so desires.

Besides, the gifts of power require GOD's power to operate in them, hence why we can't just go out and do whatever "we" desire since it would not be for His glory but ours. Everything must be to His credit, not ours. I don't get to use GOD's power for my personal desires.

I will be back later on tonight and answer your other questions since I must head to work.

AlexDTX said:

I told you I have had miraculous experiences. But it is clear that your attitude is like the rich man who was told that they had Moses and the Prophets and if someone from the dead came to them they still would not believe. There is no power of God for the miraculous in your life because you don't believe. And answered prayer for ordinary things is not miraculous. Being teleported from one location to another, and that happened to me, among other things.

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If scripture tells me the gifts expired with the Apostles who dispensed them, I need more than hearsay to challenge my beliefs.

Dave L said:

You cannot believe with the flesh and be saved.

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More outrageous comments.

And weren't you just claiming that salvation comes before belief? (more outrageous comments) Like the "born again" Jews as Jesus' disciples. Saved before they were called, according to you. Right?

Dave L said:

It takes the New Birth to have faith, and faith to see the Kingdom (and Jesus its King).

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There it is again. Born again > Faith > See Kingdom
And again, you still haven't defined what YOU mean by "faith" and "the kingdom".
Or "born again" (New Birth) for that matter.

Dave L said:

If scripture tells me the gifts expired with the Apostles who dispensed them, I need more than hearsay to challenge my beliefs.

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Where in the New Testament does it say that gifts expired? It doesn't.
By the way, I am a first hand witness to the miraculous. You don't seem to know the meaning of the word "hearsay". Hearsay is third hand testimony. The seven sons of Sceva had hearsay. They tried to cast out demons by the power that Paul said that Jesus had.

Maybe you should call Adam Schiff. He could use your support.

Dave L said:

You think John wrote about it. If the 1000 years are the Kingdom how can he attack the Kingdom when the 1000 years end?

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Revelation 20:4-6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Skidder said:

"Do you hold to the views of John MacArthur that the church in Corinth were speaking a demonic/pagan tongues?

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John MacArthur doesn't believe Corinthian tongues were demonic or pagan. He believes they were from the Holy Spirit and exactly the same as the tongues spoken at Pentecost - foreign human languages:


John MacArthur - Strange Fire (Nelson Books, 2013)

In defending nonsensical speech, most charismatics retreat to the book of 1 Corinthians— contending the gift described in 1 Corinthians 12–14 is categorically different from that of Acts. But once again, this assertion is not permitted by the text. A simple word study effectively makes that point, since both passages use the same terminology to describe the miraculous gift. In Acts, Luke uses laleo (“ to speak”) in combination with glossa (“ tongues”) four different times (Acts 2:4, 11; 10:46; 19:6). In 1 Corinthians 12– 14, Paul uses forms of that same combination thirteen times (1 Cor. 12:30; 13:1; 14:2, 4, 5 [2x], 6, 13, 18, 19, 21, 27, 39).

These linguistic parallels carry added significance when we consider that Luke was Paul’s traveling companion and close associate, even writing under Paul’s apostolic authority. Because he penned the book of Acts around AD 60, roughly five years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians, Luke would have been well aware of their confusion regarding the gift of languages. Certainly Luke would not have wanted to add to that confusion. Thus, he would not have used the exact same terminology in Acts as Paul did in 1 Corinthians unless what had happened at Pentecost was identical to the authentic gift Paul described in his epistle.

The fact that Paul noted “various kinds of tongues” in 1 Corinthians 12:10 (NASB) does not imply that some are real languages and others are merely gibberish. Rather, the Greek word for kinds is genos, from which we derive the word genus. Genos refers to a family, group, race, or nation. Linguists often refer to language “families” or “groups,” and that is precisely Paul’s point: there are various families of languages in the world, and this gift enabled some believers to speak in a variety of them. In Acts 2, Luke emphasized that same idea in verses 9– 11, where he explained that the languages that were spoken came from at least sixteen different regions.

Other parallels between Acts and 1 Corinthians 12– 14 can be established. In both places, the Source of the gift is the same— the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4, 18; 10:44–46; 19:6; 1 Cor. 12:1, 7, 11, et al.). In both places, the reception of the gift is not limited to the apostles, but also involved laypeople in the church (cf. Acts 1:15; 10:46; 19:6; 1 Cor. 12:30; 14:18). In both places, the gift is described as a speaking gift (Acts 2:4, 9–11; 1 Cor. 12:30; 14:2, 5). In both places, the resulting message can be translated and thereby understood, either by those who already know the language (as on the day of Pentecost—Pentecost— Acts 2:9–11) or by someone gifted with the ability to translate (1 Cor. 12:10; 14:5, 13).

In both places, the gift served as a miraculous sign for unbelieving Jews (Acts 2:5, 12, 14, 19; 1 Cor. 14:21–22; cf. Isa. 28:11–12). In both places, the gift of languages was closely associated with the gift of prophecy (Acts 2:16–18; 19:6; 1 Cor. 14). And in both places, unbelievers who did not understand what was being spoken responded with mockery and derision (Acts 2:13; 1 Cor. 14:23). Given so many parallels, it is exegetically impossible and irresponsible to claim that the phenomenon described in 1 Corinthians was any different from that of Acts 2. Since the gift of tongues consisted of authentic foreign languages on the day of Pentecost, then the same was true for the believers in Corinth.

Two additional considerations make this understanding absolutely certain. First, by insisting any language spoken in tongues in the church must be translated by someone with the gift of interpretation (1 Cor. 12:10; 14:27), Paul indicated that the gift consisted of rational languages. The word for interpretation is hermeneuo (from which we get hermeneutics), which refers to a “translation” or an “accurate unfolding of the meaning.” Obviously, it would be impossible to translate nonsensical gibberish, since translation requires concrete meanings in one language to be rendered correctly into another.

Unless the gift in 1 Corinthians 12–14 consisted of authentic languages, Paul’s repeated insistence on interpretation would be meaningless. As Norm Geisler explains, “The fact that the tongues of which Paul spoke in 1 Corinthians could be ‘interpreted’ shows that it was a meaningful language. Otherwise it would not be an ‘interpretation’ but a creation of the meaning. So the gift of ‘interpretation’ (1 Cor. 12:30; 14:5, 13) supports the fact that tongues were a real language that could be translated for the benefit of all by this special gift of interpretation.”

Second, Paul explicitly referenced human languages in 1 Corinthians 14:10–11, where he wrote, “There are, it may be, so many kinds of languages in the world, and none of them is without significance. Therefore, if I do not know the meaning of the language, I shall be a foreigner to him who speaks, and he who speaks will be a foreigner to me.” On the day of Pentecost, there was no need for an interpreter because people in the crowd already understood the various languages that were spoken (Acts 2:5–11). But in the Corinthian church, where those languages were not known, a translator was required; otherwise, the congregation would not understand the message and, therefore, would not be edified. The apostle’s later reference to Isaiah 28: 11–12 (a passage in which the “other tongues and other lips” refers to the Assyrian language) confirms that Paul had human foreign languages in mind (1 Cor. 14:21).

When the biblical evidence is considered, there is no question the true gift of languages described in 1 Corinthians 12–14 was precisely the same miraculous rational speech the disciples spoke in Acts 2— namely, the Spirit-given ability to communicate in a foreign language unknown to the speaker. No other explanation is permitted by the text of Scripture. As Thomas Edgar observes:


This conclusion represents a deathblow to the modern charismatic version of glossolalia, which shares nothing in common with the actual New Testament gift, but rather mirrors the frenzied speech of the ancient Greco-Roman mystery religions— pagan practices that Scripture condemns (cf. Matt. 6:7).

swordsman1 said:

He believes they were from the Holy Spirit and exactly the same as the tongues spoken at Pentecost - foreign human languages:

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Common misunderstanding. The tongues were not "foreign human languages." The miracle was in the hearing not the speaking.


Logically, if 100 people were all speaking at the same time, each in a different language, would any English speaker be able to hear the one person speaking in English? Of course not. The miracle is that each person heard them as though, all were speaking his language.

Paul clearly states that the tongues are not for men but for God.


Because the Holy Spirit joined to our human spirit (1 Cor. 6:17) is praying through us for us.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

AlexDTX said:

Common misunderstanding. The tongues were not "foreign human languages." The miracle was in the hearing not the speaking.

Act 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

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What did the foreigners hear at Pentecost? Was it the disciples speaking foreign languages or was it a voice in their heads miraculous translating the disciples' words? The verse you quoted tells us:

AlexDTX said:

Logically, if 100 people were all speaking at the same time, each in a different language, would any English speaker be able to hear the one person speaking in English? Of course not. The miracle is that each person heard them as though, all were speaking his language.

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The disciples were scattered around the expansive Temple courts. And most likely it was only 12 speaking, not 100.

AlexDTX said:

Paul clearly states that the tongues are not for men but for God.

1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

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The fact that only God understood what was spoken in the Corinthian congregation doesn't mean it was a non-human language.

Hillsage said:

You disagree???? Good, let's let "iron sharpen iron" to see where/why we disagree. I do agree with what you say above, but only when it is applied to the 'gift of tongues' for my spirit to pray. Even as you said, I too can "step out at any time" and pray the language of 'my spirit' to God. But my spirit isn't The Holy Spirit of God. And the prayer tongue of 'our spirit' isn't the context of chapter 12 which is dealing with the 9 manifesting charisma/gifts FROM the Holy Spirit....not our spirit.

1CO 12:11 But all these (Spirit gifts) worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

Question, if I HAD the Holy Spirit's "gift of healing" for others, then why can't I go empty out the hospitals? This is a justified challenge from the anti Charismatics who believe like you just said you do. And you are not alone in that position among Charismatics. I just personally disagree. But I'll let you make your case scripturally, like I will.

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Finally finished up from work, I'll try to go through these and provide scriptural answers on what I can.

As I already said, the gifts are for the body of Christ,..

1Co 14:12 So also ye, since ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may abound unto the edifying of the church.

Can GOD empower one of us to go to a hospital and heal everyone there? Certainly, but it will be His choice to do it, not ours. As I stated, we receive grace, they can only receive mercy.

I believe this verse 11 is talking about a 'tongue' from the Holy Spirit, as was given on the day of Pentecost. And the Holy Spirit's gift of tongues is not a gift you manifest whenever you will. As the verse above supports, we are talking about a tongue the Spirit gives "as he wills" or 'when He wills' not when we will.

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Verse 11 is talking about The Holy Spirit handing out the gifts to believers, not the operation of them. Here is a slightly better translation of that verse,..

1Co 12:11 But the one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing separately to each one as He purposes.

You required Him to hand the "gift/dorea" of prayer tongues of your spirit, to you AFTER being baptized by the Holy Spirit, didn't you? But 'that tongue' isn't a 'charisma gift' it is a 'dorea gift'.

I agree that the "gifts/charisma" FROM the Holy Spirit require an "activation" as you said, or anointing/unction FROM the Holy Spirit first. But I disagree with "majority" and say ALL. Then you must step out in faith to bring that manifestation to pass. I remember the first 'unction' I had in a large home group setting as a young Charismatic, to give a message as a tongues/gift/charisma from the Holy Spirit. But I did not let 'faith' rule. I let 'fear' rule. I feared, what if the person who has the "gift of interpretation" doesn't have 'the faith' speak it? Then I'll look like I didn't really have the 'anointing' to speak in tongues (oh 'young' man of faith that I was ).

1431 dorea: a gratuity

ACT 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift/dorea of the Holy Ghost.

This verse is speaking about supernatural holy spirit POWER being poured out FROM the person of the Holy Spirit of God. The Greek word for "of the" no more means you were getting the 'person' of the Holy Spirit, than that same Greek word means you were getting 'the father' in "the promise OF THE Father". Translators did us a huge injustice, 52 times in the NT, by capitalizing spirit, when it never should have been. And 'that point' is explained in the Companion Study Bible as well as in a book also written a hundred years ago and STILL in print, called "Word Studies On The Holy Spirit".

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I'm not sure I'm able to follow you on this, maybe we can take that section separately and discuss it in another post.

ACT 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift/dorea of the Holy Ghost.

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What "gift/dorea" was Peter talking about? TONGUES from their spirit first, then charisma/gift tongues from the Holy Spirit. That's the way it happened on Pentecost too. The first 'language' to come out was what made the "ungifted/unlearned" unsaved Jews declare 'drunk'. That's because it wasn't the language of the foreigners. They heard those languages every Pentecost. But the first language on Pentecost wasn't 'earthly' it was a 'bestial or artificial' sounding language.

ACT 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance....6 Now when this was noised/phone abroad,...

5456 phone: a tone (articulate, bestial or artificial); by impl. an address (for any purpose), saying or language

That was the language that drew the crowd. After gathering THEN the Holy Spirit moved upon 'the prayer tongue speaking disciples (from their spirit') to anoint them with the "gift/charisma" from the Holy Spirit to speak to the foreigners.

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Let me see if I can touch on some points to clarify my position...

Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

This section is talking about The Holy Spirit speaking through them utilizing the gift of tongues in the corporate setting. I understand it to be so because the utterance is being 'given' through the newly reborn disciples, it is not the disciples operating the gift by themselves.

Besides, the prayer tongue is between you and GOD, and that is because it is prayer, and GOD wants it done in secret like Jesus said. It is not to be operated out loud in the assembly, since that can confuse people into thinking it is the corporate tongue that requires an interpretation.

Additionally, the Holy Spirit and His gift(S) were poured out, not just tongues. We understand this to be so because Peter referenced a section of scripture describing prophecy happening at the event,...

Act 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose; seeing it is but the third hour of the day;
Act 2:16 but this is that which hath been spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall be in the last days, saith God, I will pour forth of my Spirit upon all flesh: And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, And your young men shall see visions, And your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 Yea and on my servants and on my handmaidens in those days Will I pour forth of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy.

There are two kinds of prophecy in the corporate setting, prophesying by the gift of prophecy, and the operation of tongues with interpretation that is equal to prophecy.

The bystanders in acts 2 heard the corporate tongues, and they also heard the human languages occurring from the interpretation of tongues and the gift of prophecy.

It's quite simple actually, but without any real time experience with these gifts, many people get confused. Then they attempt to approach the gifts with just their book knowledge, and then we get all sorts of junk from people like macarthur and such.

Anyways, I'm open to discussing more with you Hillsage on this topic, but it would be better for both of us if we can take apart a single subject at one time instead of approaching these posts like they are a thesis. I hate quote wars.

Saint Steven said:

Revelation 20:4-6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

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This is happening now. Notice it speaks of souls (now in heaven) ruling with Christ over the nations. Also, Jesus disproved the Pharisees physical kingdom ideas many times over.

AlexDTX said:

Where in the New Testament does it say that gifts expired? It doesn't.
By the way, I am a first hand witness to the miraculous. You don't seem to know the meaning of the word "hearsay". Hearsay is third hand testimony. The seven sons of Sceva had hearsay. They tried to cast out demons by the power that Paul said that Jesus had.

Maybe you should call Adam Schiff. He could use your support.

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The prayer of faith heals the sick.

The gifts came only through an Apostle's hands or in the two outpourings. No Apostles, no gifts.

Saint Steven said:

There it is again. Born again > Faith > See Kingdom
And again, you still haven't defined what YOU mean by "faith" and "the kingdom".
Or "born again" (New Birth) for that matter.

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Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit = New Birth = faith

Saint Steven said:

More outrageous comments.

And weren't you just claiming that salvation comes before belief? (more outrageous comments) Like the "born again" Jews as Jesus' disciples. Saved before they were called, according to you. Right?

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“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galatians 5:19–21 (KJV 1900)

Find free will and flesh faith in this mess.


“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” Galatians 5:22–25 (KJV 1900)

Find Faith after the New Birth.......

Dave L said:

This is happening now. Notice it speaks of souls (now in heaven) ruling with Christ over the nations. Also, Jesus disproved the Pharisees physical kingdom ideas many times over.

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Happening now? Wow.
John is seeing the souls of those who had been beheaded in the time of the Beast.
This is about the time after the Antichrist, the mark of the Beast, the end times.

Revelation 20:4-6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Dave L said:

Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit = New Birth = faith

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Faith is NOT a fruit of the Spirit.
That is false in reference to a new believer.
The fruit of the Spirit is the result of spiritual maturity.
The NIV properly renders it faithfulness. Which only ripens for harvest in due time.
The fruit of the Spirit is the RESULT (fruit) of the work of the Spirit in our lives over time. Like the fruit of ones labor. (the result in due time)

Galatians 5:22-23 NIV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Galatians 6:9
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
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Note about the NT Greek word for "fruit" in Gal.5:22

STRONGS NT 2590: καρπός
καρπός, καρποῦ, ὁ (cf. Latincarpo; A-S. hearf-est (harvest i. e. the ingathering of crops); Curtius, § 42); Hebrew פְּרִי; from Homer down; fruit;
...
2. Metaphorically, that which originates or comes from something; an effect, result;
a. equivalent to ἔργον, work, act, deed: with the genitive of the author, τοῦ πνεύματος, Galatians 5:22; τοῦ φωτός, Ephesians 5:9 (Rec. τοῦ πνεύματος); τῆς δικαιοσύνης, Philippians 1:11 (cf.

Dave L said:

Find Faith after the New Birth.......

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Here you go.

Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.

1 Thessalonians 3:6
But Timothy has just now come to us from you and has brought good news about your faith and love. He has told us that you always have pleasant memories of us and that you long to see us, just as we also long to see you.

Colossians 2:6-7
So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

Saint Steven said:

Here you go.

Romans 1:8
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world.

1 Thessalonians 3:6
But Timothy has just now come to us from you and has brought good news about your faith and love. He has told us that you always have pleasant memories of us and that you long to see us, just as we also long to see you.

Colossians 2:6-7
So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

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Yes, but as I proved, faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Not a work of the flesh.

Saint Steven said:

Faith is NOT a fruit of the Spirit.
That is false in reference to a new believer.
The fruit of the Spirit is the result of spiritual maturity.
The NIV properly renders it faithfulness. Which only ripens for harvest in due time.
The fruit of the Spirit is the RESULT (fruit) of the work of the Spirit in our lives over time. Like the fruit of ones labor. (the result in due time)

Galatians 5:22-23 NIV
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Galatians 6:9
Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.
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Note about the NT Greek word for "fruit" in Gal.5:22

STRONGS NT 2590: καρπός
καρπός, καρποῦ, ὁ (cf. Latincarpo; A-S. hearf-est (harvest i. e. the ingathering of crops); Curtius, § 42); Hebrew פְּרִי; from Homer down; fruit;
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2. Metaphorically, that which originates or comes from something; an effect, result;
a. equivalent to ἔργον, work, act, deed: with the genitive of the author, τοῦ πνεύματος, Galatians 5:22; τοῦ φωτός, Ephesians 5:9 (Rec. τοῦ πνεύματος); τῆς δικαιοσύνης, Philippians 1:11 (cf.

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So you are saved by a work of the flesh?