A self proclaimed "Saved Calvinist" commits murder in the morning...

redleghunter said:

It's a good church because it is Reformed in theology.

Click to expand...

If I understand correctly, Reformed Theology teaches "limited atonement" or Christ dying only for the saved elect. If that's the case Reformed Theology seems to contradict the scripture:

1 John 2:2
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Hammster said:

That would depend on your understanding of propitiation, and what’s meant by whole world.

Click to expand...

It's not really about me though.

Reformed proposes the idea of limited atonement, John the Apostle says the aforementioned on the matter.

So how would Reformed harmonize the two seemingly opposing views,bearing in mind John is the discipline of Christ and Calvin is potentially not even saved?

BNR32FAN said:

I’m sorry, are you saying that you defined irresistible grace? What I mean is you are defining your own version of irresistible grace? Because I was referring to what Calvin actually taught and in his definition a person cannot resist God’s election to the point of condemnation no matter how hard they try.

Click to expand...

I can say first what irresistible grace is not. It is not that some who are saved by God's Grace go kicking and screaming along the way. It does not mean one who is saved by God's Grace can sin without regrets and without conviction of sin and without repentance.

Irresistible Grace has to do with God's will and purpose in saving those He calls and chooses (remember many are called, few are chosen).


More here if you want:

What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism

A true Christian, whether Calvinist or not would never commit murder.

My question would be "Can a Catholic who worships many gods and demigods be saved?" That is a more important question.

Daniel C said:

If I understand correctly, Reformed Theology teaches "limited atonement" or Christ dying only for the saved elect. If that's the case Reformed Theology seems to contradict the scripture:

1 John 2:2
"And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."

Click to expand...

You are Baptist by your avatar profile. If I take that verse alone, does that mean you are advocating Universalist salvation? I don't think so since you are Baptist, but it offers a point of the context does it not?

Limited Atonement is that Christ laid down His life for His sheep. In the following passage Jesus makes a distinction of who are His sheep and those who are not His sheep. He states that He lays down His life for the sheep:

John 10: NASB

1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2“But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3“To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4“When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5“A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8“All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13“He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

19A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words. 20Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?” 21Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

Hammster said:

Again, it depends on what’s meant, first of all, by propitiation. It means that God’s wrath was satisfied. If His wrath was satisfied, if Christ bore the punishment for sin, then there can be no one but demons in hell. Otherwise God would be unjust for punishing people that His Son took the punishment for.

So when John says


and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:2

he’s saying that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of his readers, the “our”, and He’s the propitiation for those of the whole world. Well, “whole world” doesn’t need to mean each and every person who will ever have lived. In fact, if it does, then we are back to the idea that there will either be no one in hell, or hell will be unjustly filled with folks whom Christ died for.

It’s better to understand that “whole world” means people from every tongue, tribe and nation. In other words, people from all over the world.

Click to expand...

Yes, as 1 John 2:2 is used out of context, we should just all go over to the Controversial Christian theology thread and 'convert' to Unitarian Universalism.

Hammster said:

Again, it depends on what’s meant, first of all, by propitiation. It means that God’s wrath was satisfied. If His wrath was satisfied, if Christ bore the punishment for sin, then there can be no one but demons in hell. Otherwise God would be unjust for punishing people that His Son took the punishment for.

So when John says


and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
— 1 John 2:2

he’s saying that Christ is the propitiation for the sins of his readers, the “our”, and He’s the propitiation for those of the whole world. Well, “whole world” doesn’t need to mean each and every person who will ever have lived. In fact, if it does, then we are back to the idea that there will either be no one in hell, or hell will be unjustly filled with folks whom Christ died for.

It’s better to understand that “whole world” means people from every tongue, tribe and nation. In other words, people from all over the world.

Click to expand...

Well that's the Reformed interpretation of propitiation and I would disagree. Christ is a higher offering and is the only way the satisfy God the father but in order to be granted a place in Gods kingdom as our own merit and works is worthless.

Hell is for the Christ rejectors not limited atonement. I would think it would be a greater sacrifice and a harder burden to bear if whole worlds sin was placed on him rather than a partial job as calvin suggests.

S.ilvio said:

The question is crystal clear...

Click to expand...

I know you are trying to refute the eternal security belief in Reformed Theology but you might try a different way. Just because someone proclaims that they are saved does not mean that they are and irregardless of what theology they self proclaim that they are. Reformed Theology also teaches that the rebirth PRODUCES fruit in keeping with the moral laws and behaviors a outlined in scripture. An unrepentant, anybody who murders is not producing that fruit, hence they can self proclaim til the cows come home. Doesn't make it so.

S.ilvio said:

So repentance is required..?

Click to expand...

faith is required. Repentance is a result of the faith.

redleghunter said:

You are Baptist by your avatar profile. If I take that verse alone, does that mean you are advocating Universalist salvation? I don't think so since you are Baptist, but it offers a point of the context does it not?

Limited Atonement is that Christ laid down His life for His sheep. In the following passage Jesus makes a distinction of who are His sheep and those who are not His sheep. He states that He lays down His life for the sheep:

John 10: NASB

1“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbs up some other way, he is a thief and a robber. 2“But he who enters by the door is a shepherd of the sheep. 3“To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4“When he puts forth all his own, he goes ahead of them, and the sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5“A stranger they simply will not follow, but will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers.” 6This figure of speech Jesus spoke to them, but they did not understand what those things were which He had been saying to them.

7So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. 8“All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. 9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture. 10“The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.

11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13“He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me, 15even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16“I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd. 17“For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. 18“No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”

19A division occurred again among the Jews because of these words. 20Many of them were saying, “He has a demon and is insane. Why do you listen to Him?” 21Others were saying, “These are not the sayings of one demon-possessed. A demon cannot open the eyes of the blind, can he?”

22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem; 23it was winter, and Jesus was walking in the temple in the portico of Solomon. 24The Jews then gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. 26“But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. 27“My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29“My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30“I and the Father are one.”

Click to expand...

Being fundamental Baptist means I believe what the Bible says. No I don't believe all people will be saved. I've said before many times that parables are not a good place to base principle doctrines on. I'm not a sheep I'm a man whose accepted Christ as his lord and saviour, so yes things need to be taken in context.

I think Reformed and Baptist have some overlap on the same doctrine like faith alone and other things.I actually believe in eternal security or preservation of the saints because the Bible describes salvation as a free eternal gift,although not all Baptist hold the same view on that.

I just don't see limited atonement.

Also, it's very clear mans will can be used to choose God,after hearing his word. Why else would Christ give the great commission?

Daniel C said:

Well that's the Reformed interpretation of propitiation and I would disagree. Christ is a higher offering and is the only way the satisfy God the father but in order to be granted a place in Gods kingdom as our own merit and works is worthless.

Click to expand...

That’s actually an argument for effectual atonement. That is how it would be explained “effectual” in our modern terms. If the atonement is for all humanity we either conclude everyone is saved or the atonement is only partially effectual. Effectual atonement would address John 10 where Jesus said He lays down His life for His sheep. In the very same dialogue he tells some there they are not His sheep.

There are some who call it particular atonement:


If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ, in some particular way, died for those who actually do believe. In the first case, you would believe that the death of Christ did not decisively secure the salvation of anyone; it only made all men savable so that something else would be decisive in saving them, namely their choice. In that case, the death of Christ did not actually remove the sentence of death and did not actually guarantee new life for anyone. Rather it only created possibilities of salvation which could be actualized by people who provide the decisive cause, namely, their faith. In this understanding of the atonement, faith and repentance are not blood-bought gifts of God for particular sinners, but are rather the acts of some sinners that make the blood work for them.

You begin to see how closely this doctrine of the atonement is connected with the previous one, irresistible grace. What I think the Bible teaches is that this very irresistible grace is purchased by the blood of Jesus. The new birth is blood-bought. The effectual call is blood-bought. The gift of repentance is blood-bought. None of these acts of irresistible grace is deserved. They came to us because Christ secured them by his blood and righteousness. But that means, he did not secure them for all in the same way. Otherwise all would be born again, and all would be effectually called, and all would receive the gift of repentance.

So the personal and experiential question we face here at the beginning of this section is: Do we believe that Christ decisively secured for me the call and life and faith and repentance I now have? Or do I contribute these things from myself so that what he died to achieve counts for me? For if Christ died for all people in the same way, then his death did not infallibly obtain regenerating grace or faith or repentance for those who are saved. We must have regenerated ourselves without the blood-bought miracle of Christ, and we must have come to faith and repentance ourselves without the blood-bought gifts of faith and repentance.

In other words, if we believe that Christ died for all men in the same way, then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith, because then all men would be brought to faith, but they aren’t. But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith (irresistible grace) is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross, then we are left to obtain our deliverance from deadness and blindness and rebellion another way. We are left to make our way into the safety of Christ another way, since he did not obtain this entrance (new birth, faith, repentance) for us when he died.

Daniel C said:

Hell is for the Christ rejectors not limited atonement. I would think it would be a greater sacrifice and a harder burden to bear if whole worlds sin was placed on him rather than a partial job as calvin suggests.

Click to expand...

limited, effectual or particular atonement has nothing to degrade the atonement of Christ Jesus. Again if the atonement applies to all people of all ages then Universalism is what we should believe. For all those who are atoned for by the Blood of Christ will be saved.

John Piper makes a valid point:


Therefore, it becomes evident that it is not the Calvinist who limits the atonement. It is those who deny that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need — namely, salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God. They limit the power and effectiveness of the atonement so that they can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned. In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, they must limit the atonement to a possibilityor an opportunity for salvation if fallen humans can escape from their deadness and rebellion and obtain faith by an effectual means not provided by the cross.

On the other hand, we do not limit the power and effectiveness of the atonement. Rather we say that in the cross, God had in view the actual, effective redemption of his children from all that would destroy them, including their own unbelief. And we affirm that when Christ died particularly for his bride, he did not simply create a possibility or an opportunity for salvation, but really purchased and infallibly secured for them all that is necessary to get them saved, including the grace of regeneration and the gift of faith.

Daniel C said:

Being fundamental Baptist means I believe what the Bible says. No I don't believe all people will be saved. I've said before many times that parables are not a good place to base principle doctrines on. I'm not a sheep I'm a man whose accepted Christ as his lord and saviour, so yes things need to be taken in context.

Click to expand...

It was not a parable. But being a Reformed Baptist I understand the need for the Bible to interpret the Bible. Paul teaches in Ephesians 1 the following:

Ephesians 1:

He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8that He lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding.

Daniel C said:

I think Reformed and Baptist have some overlap on the same doctrine like faith alone and other things.I actually believe in eternal security or preservation of the saints because the Bible describes salvation as a free eternal gift,although not all Baptist hold the same view on that.

Click to expand...

Yes and we both teach we are to live holy lives walking in the Holy Spirit. We do share a lot and why you and I can break bread together.

Daniel C said:

Also, it's very clear mans will can be used to choose God,after hearing his word. Why else would Christ give the great commission?

Click to expand...

You are right and no one argued this point. Some have asserted creating misrepresentations. Jesus said many are called (hear the Gospel) few are chosen.

It is what is called the difference between general call (hearing the Gospel) and effectual call (those who respond to the calling of the Holy Spirit).

Ephesians 2 shows this call from God is the difference between death and life.

Ephesians 2: NASB

1And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.3Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

renniks said:

Then why are there a multitude of warnings against apostasy?

Click to expand...

"Many are called but few are chosen...

The audience is a mix of wheat and tares.

“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain..."

Some are called and are chosen, some are called and are apostate.

The chosen have His indwelling presence.

The chosen are sealed against disobedience that would lead to apostasy.

Hammster said:

We proclaim the gospel. God is responsible for the results. That’s why I quoted Romans 10 to answer your first question.

Click to expand...

Ok. Thank you. Sorry if my phrasing came across unkindly. That was not charitable, or loving, and I'll correct it.

I can understand that you believe that God is the one who calls and makes it possible for a person to believe and respond to the Gospel.

But I do think that there's a tension, perhaps, between urging someone to repent, and believing that they can not. I do hear Reformed preaching which gives the impression that the preacher does believe that a hearer could actually respond positively, of their own will, to the message.