Question for Jews and uslims on Malachi

Islam_mulia said:

In your enthusiasm to explain that Jesus was god, you boldly used the verse "I and the Father are One".

Note that there are only TWO mentioned here, not the Father, Son and HS. The Tinity somehow collapses when using the above verse.

The danger of this, without you knowing it, is that you are proposing a duality, or 2-in-1, which is not what your own religion teaches you.

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the holy spirit didn't come until after the ressurection of Jesus. so yeah, it didn't mention the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Soirit didn't come yet! so there's your answer....

and as bit off topic.. please stop being so bossy to me all the time. you always say "one at a time" or "stop posting" or "i don't take you seriously." - well, if you don't take me seriously, there's a setting where you can block all my posts so you won't have to read them!

kjf512 said:

the holy spirit didn't come until after the ressurection of Jesus. so yeah, it didn't mention the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Soirit didn't come yet! so there's your answer....

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I am not sure if this is the official reply from most christian bodies.

Please think carefully. Are you saying that at one time, the trinity did not exist since the holy spirit has not arrived?

kjf512 said:

and as bit off topic.. please stop being so bossy to me all the time. you always say "one at a time" or "stop posting" or "i don't take you seriously." - well, if you don't take me seriously, there's a setting where you can block all my posts so you won't have to read them!

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Sorry. My advice was for you to stay on the topic.

john 16 says that jesus will send a comforter.. it would be a spirit, and confirm the message of christ. that was the holy spirit.

the holy spirit was always within Him, but wasn't left with the world until.. He left.. lol

kjf512 said:

john 16 says that jesus will send a comforter.. it would be a spirit, and confirm the message of christ. that was the holy spirit.

the holy spirit was always within Him, but wasn't left with the world until.. He left.. lol

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are you sure? In John 16 we read "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." The comforter can not be the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost (according to the Bible) was "with" them already (and even quite active) long before the coming of Jesus (pbuh) himself and then throughout his ministry. Read for example.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

1 Samuel 10:10 "And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them."

"And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."

1 Samuel 11:6

"Then he remembered the days of old, moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?"

Isaiah 63:11

"For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

Luke 1:15

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee."

Luke 1:35

"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost"

Luke 1:41

"And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,"

Luke 1:67

"And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him."

Luke 2:25

"And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost (Simeon), that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ."

Luke 2:26


"And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him (Jesus), and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

Luke 3:22

"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."
John 20:21-22


Did they or did they not already receive the Holy Ghost? Was Jesus (pbuh) not still with them when they received the Holy Ghost? Was the Holy Ghost not with Simeon, Mary, Elisabeth and Zacharias before the birth of Jesus (pbuh)? Was the Holy Ghost not with Moses (pbuh) when he parted the seas? There are many more similar verses to be found in the Bible. In the above verses, we are told that if Jesus (pbuh) does not depart then the "parakletos" will not come. Thus, the "Holy Ghost" cannot be the one originally intended since it was already with them. The contradiction is quite obvious.

Adeeb said:

are you sure? In John 16 we read "if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you." The comforter can not be the Holy Ghost because the Holy Ghost (according to the Bible) was "with" them already (and even quite active) long before the coming of Jesus (pbuh) himself and then throughout his ministry. Read for example.

Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

1 Samuel 10:10 "And when they came thither to the hill, behold, a company of prophets met him; and the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them."

"And the Spirit of God came upon Saul when he heard those tidings, and his anger was kindled greatly."

1 Samuel 11:6

"Then he remembered the days of old, moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?"

Isaiah 63:11

"For he (John the Baptist) shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb."

Luke 1:15

"And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee."

Luke 1:35

"And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost"

Luke 1:41

"And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,"

Luke 1:67

"And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him."

Luke 2:25

"And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost (Simeon), that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ."

Luke 2:26


"And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him (Jesus), and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."

Luke 3:22

"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost."
John 20:21-22


Did they or did they not already receive the Holy Ghost? Was Jesus (pbuh) not still with them when they received the Holy Ghost? Was the Holy Ghost not with Simeon, Mary, Elisabeth and Zacharias before the birth of Jesus (pbuh)? Was the Holy Ghost not with Moses (pbuh) when he parted the seas? There are many more similar verses to be found in the Bible. In the above verses, we are told that if Jesus (pbuh) does not depart then the "parakletos" will not come. Thus, the "Holy Ghost" cannot be the one originally intended since it was already with them. The contradiction is quite obvious.

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lol, i just got on eSword and looked at commentary for john 16:17 (the verse you quoted) and it answered your question almost as if you had asked! lol

for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him to you. The Spirit of God in some sense had come, before the death of Christ; he had appeared in the creation of all things out of nothing, as a joint Creator with the Father and Son; he was come as a spirit of prophecy upon the inspired writers, and others; the Old Testament saints had received him as a spirit of faith; he had been given to Christ as man, without measure, and the disciples had been partakers of his gifts and graces; but he was not come in so peculiar a manner as he afterwards did; as the promise of the Father, the glorifier of Christ, the comforter of his people, the spirit of truth, and the reprover of the world: there are reasons to be given, why the Spirit of God should not come in such a manner before, as after the death of Christ. The order of the three divine persons in the Trinity, and in the economy of man's salvation, required such a method to be observed; that the Father should first, and for a while, be more especially manifested; next the Son, and then the Spirit: besides, our Lord has given a reason himself, why the Spirit "was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified", Joh_7:39; And the coming of the Spirit as a comforter, and the spirit of truth, was to be through the intercession, and by the mission of Christ; and therefore it was proper he should go away first, in order to send him; add to all this, that if Christ had not gone away or died, there would have been nothing for the Spirit to have done; no blood to sprinkle; no righteousness to reveal and bring near; no salvation to apply; or any of the things of Christ, and blessings of grace, to have taken and shown; all which are owing to the death of Christ, and which show the expediency of it: the expediency of Christ's death for the mission of the Spirit to his disciples, is very conspicuous; for hereby they were comforted and supported under a variety of troubles; were led into all truth, and so furnished for their ministerial work; and were made abundantly successful in it, that being attended with the demonstration of the Spirit and of power.

hi kjf,your post is not an answer for adeeb

if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you...the Holy Spirit(what is the difference between Ghost and Spirit?) had been there already,He came to Masiah as a dove for example and before this He came to Mary

by the way muslims think that the Holy Spirit was Gabriel

anatolian said:

hi kjf,your post is not an answer for adeeb

if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you...the Holy Spirit(what is the difference between Ghost and Spirit?) had been there already,He came to Masiah as a dove for example and before this He came to Mary

by the way muslims think that the Holy Spirit was Gabriel

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the comforter was the Hoy Spirit.. it even says so in john 14:26 that it's the Holy Spirit!

also, mohammad never confirmed the words of Jesus. which is a requirment.

John 14:16-17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."
Problem: Moslems claim that the Comforter described in this passage is Muhammad. The evidence they give for this is extremely loose. Jesus shows here that his task is not complete, but that something else will be sent to complete it. Moslems believe that many of the things that are left for the Comforter (Greek: Paracletos) to do are things that were done by Muhammad and Muhammad was given various titles which are included in this passage applied to the Comforter.
Solution:

1. 
   [*]If Moslems quote this passage they must be prepared to take its teaching seriously as something sent from God.
   [*]The names, titles, etc. applied to Muhammad were given after the event by Moslems who would be aware of them from accounts of the Bible which had traveled to Arabia.
   [*]The New Testament clearly identifies the Comforter as the Holy Spirit (John 14:26).
   [*]The task of the Comforter was to confirm the words of Jesus (John 14:26). Muhammad never fitted this. He did not confirm the words of Jesus to the disciples because he never heard Jesus speak and the disciples died centuries before he was born.
   [*]Muhammad cannot have been the Spirit of Truth (John 14:17; 16:13). He was not a spirit but a solid man.
   [*]The world could not receive the Comforter (John 14:17). Muhammad was not only received but founded a great empire.
   [*]The Comforter was to relate to the disciples all the words of Jesus (John 14:26). Apart from the fact that Muhammad never met the disciples he did not relate any of the words of Jesus (the words that appear in the Qur'an and purport to come from Jesus really came from late apocryphal sources).
   [*]The Comforter was sent by Jesus from God (John 15:26; 16:7) In what way did Jesus send Muhammad?
   [*]The Comforter was to give prophecy (John 16:13). Muhammad never gave any prophecy

from wrested scriptures

what is the link between these two verses?

Is this verse of NT the fulfillment of Malachi 3:1?

LittleLambofJesus said:

From what I understand, the Muslims believe that "Messenger" is Muhammad [correct me if I am wrong tho].

Which one of the 3 here is the "He" in the last part of this verse?
And do the Muslims believe that the "Lord" mentioned here is Jesus? Thanks.

Malachi 3:1 Behold! sending Messenger of Me, and-he-paves way to faces of Me
And suddenly He shall come to Temple of Him, the Lord/0113 'adown, whom ye ones seeking, and a Messenger of the Covenant, whom ye ones delighting. Behold! He comes says YHWH of Hosts.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus coming-out from the Temple went and toward-came the disciples of Him to show to Him the buildings of the Temple.

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We Muslims don't try to interpret Christian and Jewish scripture.

LittleLambofJesus said:

How come? Isn't a lot of your Koran from those same Scriptures?

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Nope, the Qur'an came from Allah.

LittleLambofJesus said:

What about the Jewish and Christian Scriptures

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Well we don't believe the Bible of today is the same one sent by Allah to his messengers, we believe it was changed so we don't know what is true in it and what is not, we would believe anything in it that is confirmed by the Qur'an, we will reject anything that is against our beliefs and we neither accept nor reject things that aren't confirmed by the Qur'an and not against our beliefs.

Did it yield fruit for you LLOJ?