Communion

FaithT

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What do Lutherans call the changes from bread and wine into bread, wine, Body and Blood of Jesus? Catholics call that Transubstantiation, though in the Catholic Church they believe the bread and wine no longer remain. Do Lutherans still call theirs Consubstantiation?

Catholic priests go through seminary for years and their ordination is a big deal, or so I’ve gathered. I never went to one. What do Lutheran pastors go through to become ordained and what qualifies them to be able to transform the bread and wine into bread, wine, Body and Blood of Jesus Christ?
 

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If you flip open a Reformed Systematic theology book, you'll find that Consubstantiation is typically what the Reformed call Lutheran Eucharist, and although a few Lutherans have employed the word, it's not a term or theological stance that is in line with orthodox Lutheranism. It's in fact been denied by many orthodox Lutherans.

For example, J. L. Neve writing on the Augsburg Confession (1914) writes: "If by this term (Consubstantiation) we are to understand the creation of a third substance out of the two substances (bread and wine on the one hand, Body and Blood on the other), then the Lutheran Church also rejects Consubstantiation. According to the Confessions of our Church the earthly elements of bread and wine remain what they are, unchanged, but "in, with and under" these elements, in a mysterious way, the true Body and Blood of Christ are received."

Lutherans confess Sacramental Union, which is essentially that the elements are bread and wine, but truly the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Only it's not scientifically explained, such as Transubstantiation (a change in substance, but the accidents remain the same) or Consubstantiation (a mix of earthly and divine elements, composing a new mixed element).

Sacramental Union is in some respects similar to the Eastern Orthdox understanding in that it's confessed simply as a holy mystery. (Sacrament quite literally means "mysterion" - mystery)

Very simply, whenever Lutherans say "in, with and under", it's not a scientific formula for how the Eucharist works, but rather simply acknowledging that (1) yes, it's bread and wine, and (2) yes, it's truly the body and blood of Christ.

There's much more I can say about it, but hopefully, this is sufficient. Blessings! + :)
 
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tampasteve

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In general it is a mystery. But we absolutely believe in the Real Presence, not a symbol or simply a spiritual presence. Most LCMS pastors go through several years of seminary training before ordination and calling to a church.
 
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FaithT

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In general it is a mystery. But we absolutely believe in the Real Presence, not a symbol or simply a spiritual presence. Most LCMS pastors go through several years of seminary training before ordination and calling to a church.

But what is their ordination like? What happens that gives them the power to be able to access the HS and confect the bread and wine?
 
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tampasteve

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But what is their ordination like? What happens that gives them the power to be able to access the HS and confect the bread and wine?
The ordination is not what "gives them the power", it is the HS working through the imperfect person called for the pupose. If I remember correctly, the LCMS believes that anyone can consecrate the elements so long as it is done with reverence and the words of institution and they are called by the congregation. However, that is only to be used under circumstances where a Pastor is not available for consecration. In other words, it is not appropriate for the layman to consecrate the elements, but it is possible. The key in the LCMS is that the person is called for the purpose, to quote Walther:
"No one doubts the administration of the holy Supper by a layman who had been temporarily called by a whole congregation in an emergency, although not ordained, would be valid and legitimate...But in this way the layman is administering it not as layman but as a minister who has been truly called for a time." Pastoral Theology, Walther, CN 1995, Page 136.
 
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tampasteve

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But what is their ordination like? What happens that gives them the power to be able to access the HS and confect the bread and wine?
The ordination in the LCMS is not quite like a Catholic ordination. There is a laying on of hands, but the LCMS does not believe in Apostolic Succession, so the meaning is not quiet the same. But I will let people more familiar with the LCMS comment as I am more familiar with ELCA in this matter.
 
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FaithT

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The ordination in the LCMS is not quite like a Catholic ordination. There is a laying on of hands, but the LCMS does not believe in Apostolic Succession, so the meaning is not quiet the same. But I will let people more familiar with the LCMS comment as I am more familiar with ELCA in this matter.


Anybody else want to chime in?
 
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To me sacramental union is the most correct terminology associated with the “real presence” because it carries elements of the hypostatic union.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Anybody else want to chime in?

In LCMS, Apostolicity does not denote Apostolic Succession, in contrast to bodies like the Scandinavian churches who hold to a moderate view of this. That is, they claim to have Apostolic Succession, but don’t insist on it being necessary, as the Lutheran Church in general (including the LCMS) believe, teach and confess that Apostolicity, in short, means conformity to Apostolic doctrine. Wherever the Word is rightly preached and the Sacraments are rightly administered, there we have the catholic and Apostolic church.

What this means for the administration of the Sacraments is that:
1. It’s not a divinely given ability to invoke the Holy Spirit or create the Sacrament. The effect and validity of the Sacrament hangs on Christ’s own words of institution. When the words “this is my body” etc are spoken, the Sacrament is consecrated, not because of the minister’s ability or personal right, but because of God’s grace and Christ’s own promise that it is so.

2. From the above it could be construed that anyone can administer the Sacraments, but that’s not ordinarily the case*, for the preaching of the Word and the administration of the Sacraments are given to the Church and tied up to the pastoral office. In our Confession it’s written: “Of Ecclesiastical Order they teach that no one should publicly teach in the Church or administer the Sacraments unless he be regularly called.”

* LCMS will allow Baptism performed by a layperson in the event of an emergency. This is printed in the back of their recent Catechism.
 
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FaithT

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In LCMS, Apostolicity does not denote Apostolic Succession, in contrast to bodies like the Scandinavian churches who hold to a moderate view of this. That is, they claim to have Apostolic Succession, but don’t insist on it being necessary, as the Lutheran Church in general (including the LCMS) believe, teach and confess that Apostolicity, in short, means conformity to Apostolic doctrine. Wherever the Word is rightly preached and the Sacraments are rightly administered, there we have the catholic and Apostolic church.

What this means for the administration of the Sacraments is that:
1. It’s not a divinely given ability to invoke the Holy Spirit or create the Sacrament. The effect and validity of the Sacrament hangs on Christ’s own words of institution. When the words “this is my body” etc are spoken, the Sacrament is consecrated, not because of the minister’s ability or personal right, but because of God’s grace and Christ’s own promise that it is so.
.

I don’t think I understand. Can you tell me more?
 
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Daniel9v9

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I don’t think I understand. Can you tell me more?

Sure, yeah :)

Fair warning, I find it challenging to be brief when talking about the Sacraments, but I'll at least stick to only comparing the Roman Catholic understanding and the Lutheran understanding of the Eucharist in light of Apostolicity. However, I'd need to lay some foundation for context so please bear with me.

Whenever we compare doctrine, we have to appreciate that words have different meanings in different church bodies, and the Eucharist, as with any other doctrine or article of faith, is part of a larger theological system. So, it wouldn't make sense to rip out the doctrine on the Eucharist in one system and force it into a different system as it wouldn't fit the overall theological framework. In simple terms, one teaching most often depends on other teachings. So we have to respect the whole system of thought in the different church bodies in order to properly understand their differences. For this reason, I think when we compare the Eucharist in the Roman and Lutheran traditions, we probably need to understand something about Apostolicity and Ecclesiology (doctrines about the Holy Church).

In the Nicene Creed, we have the article of faith that says: "I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church" Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans believe, teach and confess this. However, the meaning is regrettably taken in two very different ways.

The Roman Catholic Church understands this term "catholic", which means "universal", to refer to the instituted Roman Catholic Church with their holy orders, tradition, and Pope who governs all things; in other words, the Roman Catholic Church understands "catholic" to mean a visible institution. The Lutheran Church understands "catholic" to mean "universal", which is the literal meaning, referring to believers everywhere in the world and throughout all times. Not necessarily members of any particular church body, though Lutherans naturally believe that in their Church the Gospel, God's Word and Sacraments are rightly taught and upheld. So Lutherans teach that the Church of Christ is not any visible institution, but that the visible church bodies are a mixture of true believers and false believers, but that the true Holy Church is one and invisible, and consists of true believers only. So when Lutherans confess a belief in a "catholic church", we mean that the Holy Church is the communion of saints and true believers in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, our one God and one Lord Jesus Christ, where the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments rightly administered.

The Roman Catholic Church understands this term "apostolic" to mean (1) that the Pope, sitting in St Peter's seat, is the current day apostle and vicar of Christ on earth. And that (2) the church, by divine right, carry Apostolic Succession through their orders. That is, they believe that the office of the ministry must come through a literal succession of men, performed by the church. This has huge implications and a lot more can be said about it, but the Lutheran Church teaches that the Church is called "apostolic" because it’s built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus as the Cornerstone. It’s also Apostolic given its doctrinal and historical connection with the Apostles, and that it continually sets forth the doctrine of the Apostles, remains steadfast in the teachings, and carries the apostolic mission of preaching the Gospel to the whole world. We recognise that the early Church rightly stressed the importance of Apostolicity, especially against heretics and schismatics, though Apostolicity should not be understood as a transmitting of divinely instituted authority or hierarchy (Roman Catholic understanding), which has no real Scriptural support, and is in fact, even an idea refuted by some of the Church Fathers.

So, with all of this about a catholic and apostolic Church in mind, we can see how different the framework of Roman Catholic doctrine is from Lutheran. Rooted in these different understandings about what it means to be "catholic and apostolic", the Roman Catholic Church teaches that their priests have a special divinely given authority to perform the Mass, and that it's via Apostolic Succession that the priest is qualified. The churches in Scandinavia do have Apostolic Succession, but because they're Lutheran, they don't view it as necessary for the administration of the Eucharist, because the Eucharist is God's grace and effective on account of God's own promise. To put it a bit more forcefully, the Eucharist is not valid on account of a priest with Apostolic Succession, but when a priest/pastor who are rightly and regularly called to his office by the Church, faithfully preach and administer God's Word and Sacraments in conformity with Apostolic doctrine, which is nothing else than God's Word. The pastors in LCMS do not have Apostolic Succession, but they are rightly Apostolic as explained above and therefore fully equipped and qualified to preach God's Word and administer the Sacraments. :)
 
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FaithT

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Sure, yeah :)

Fair warning, I find it challenging to be brief when talking about the Sacraments, but I'll at least stick to only comparing the Roman Catholic understanding and the Lutheran understanding of the Eucharist in light of Apostolicity. However, I'd need to lay some foundation for context so please bear with me.

Whenever we compare doctrine, we have to appreciate that words have different meanings in different church bodies, and the Eucharist, as with any other doctrine or article of faith, is part of a larger theological system. So, it wouldn't make sense to rip out the doctrine on the Eucharist in one system and force it into a different system as it wouldn't fit the overall theological framework. In simple terms, one teaching most often depends on other teachings. So we have to respect the whole system of thought in the different church bodies in order to properly understand their differences. For this reason, I think when we compare the Eucharist in the Roman and Lutheran traditions, we probably need to understand something about Apostolicity and Ecclesiology (doctrines about the Holy Church).

In the Nicene Creed, we have the article of faith that says: "I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church" Both Roman Catholics and Lutherans believe, teach and confess this. However, the meaning is regrettably taken in two very different ways.

The Roman Catholic Church understands this term "catholic", which means "universal", to refer to the instituted Roman Catholic Church with their holy orders, tradition, and Pope who governs all things; in other words, the Roman Catholic Church understands "catholic" to mean a visible institution. The Lutheran Church understands "catholic" to mean "universal", which is the literal meaning, referring to believers everywhere in the world and throughout all times. Not necessarily members of any particular church body, though Lutherans naturally believe that in their Church the Gospel, God's Word and Sacraments are rightly taught and upheld. So Lutherans teach that the Church of Christ is not any visible institution, but that the visible church bodies are a mixture of true believers and false believers, but that the true Holy Church is one and invisible, and consists of true believers only. So when Lutherans confess a belief in a "catholic church", we mean that the Holy Church is the communion of saints and true believers in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, our one God and one Lord Jesus Christ, where the Gospel is rightly taught and the Sacraments rightly administered.

The Roman Catholic Church understands this term "apostolic" to mean (1) that the Pope, sitting in St Peter's seat, is the current day apostle and vicar of Christ on earth. And that (2) the church, by divine right, carry Apostolic Succession through their orders. That is, they believe that the office of the ministry must come through a literal succession of men, performed by the church. This has huge implications and a lot more can be said about it, but the Lutheran Church teaches that the Church is called "apostolic" because it’s built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus as the Cornerstone. It’s also Apostolic given its doctrinal and historical connection with the Apostles, and that it continually sets forth the doctrine of the Apostles, remains steadfast in the teachings, and carries the apostolic mission of preaching the Gospel to the whole world. We recognise that the early Church rightly stressed the importance of Apostolicity, especially against heretics and schismatics, though Apostolicity should not be understood as a transmitting of divinely instituted authority or hierarchy (Roman Catholic understanding), which has no real Scriptural support, and is in fact, even an idea refuted by some of the Church Fathers.

So, with all of this about a catholic and apostolic Church in mind, we can see how different the framework of Roman Catholic doctrine is from Lutheran. Rooted in these different understandings about what it means to be "catholic and apostolic", the Roman Catholic Church teaches that their priests have a special divinely given authority to perform the Mass, and that it's via Apostolic Succession that the priest is qualified. The churches in Scandinavia do have Apostolic Succession, but because they're Lutheran, they don't view it as necessary for the administration of the Eucharist, because the Eucharist is God's grace and effective on account of God's own promise. To put it a bit more forcefully, the Eucharist is not valid on account of a priest with Apostolic Succession, but when a priest/pastor who are rightly and regularly called to his office by the Church, faithfully preach and administer God's Word and Sacraments in conformity with Apostolic doctrine, which is nothing else than God's Word. The pastors in LCMS do not have Apostolic Succession, but they are rightly Apostolic as explained above and therefore fully equipped and qualified to preach God's Word and administer the Sacraments. :)


So Lutheran pastors are not only able to administer the sacraments but for your reasons above, also, allows them to consecrate the Eucharist, right?
 
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Daniel9v9

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So Lutheran pastors are not only able to administer the sacraments but for your reasons above, also, allows them to consecrate the Eucharist, right?

Absolutely yes! :)

There are many differences between the Roman and the Lutheran Eucharist, but when it comes to consecration, Lutherans reject the idea that the priest is the one who creates the Real Presence. The Lutheran Church holds that no work of man or declaration of the minister produces the Real Presence of the body and blood of Christ in the Holy Supper, but that this should be ascribed only and alone to the almighty power of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Daniel9v9

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Sorry for the spam, but I just remembered one important point that kind of neatly sums up the difference of thought when it comes to the Sacraments. You can think of it this way:

The Lutheran Church explain the Sacraments as means of grace - that is, something God, from beginning to end, does for us - but all other church bodies, to varying degrees and in some form or another, ultimately explain the Sacraments as something we do for God; whether this is us making a sacrifice to God, or obeying a new kind of law, or merely performing some memorial-rite with no real substance. They all have an attitude of obedience. They all suffer from a from-us-to-God understanding, and because of this, their understanding of what it means to be a worthy or qualified participant or celebrant becomes very different from what it means in the Lutheran sense. To be unworthy or unqualified in the Lutheran Eucharist is to say that there is disbelief in God and what He has instituted in His Sacraments. Worthiness or qualification is not some quality inside of us or a divinely given right, but very simply, we are sinners and God gives us grace.

In short, Lutherans understand the Eucharist as God giving a promise for us to believe in. Other church bodies believe that the Eucharist is a command to follow. (Though they often wouldn't put it quite as bluntly as this) I don't know if you find that useful, but perhaps it can clarify a little.
 
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FaithT

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Sorry for the spam, but I just remembered one important point that kind of neatly sums up the difference of thought when it comes to the Sacraments. You can think of it this way:

The Lutheran Church explain the Sacraments as means of grace - that is, something God, from beginning to end, does for us - but all other church bodies, to varying degrees and in some form or another, ultimately explain the Sacraments as something we do for God;.


What do Catholics or denominationals do that explains the Sacraments as something they do for God?
 
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Daniel9v9

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What do Catholics or denominationals do that explains the Sacraments as something they do for God?

Well, for example, those who follow in the steps of Zwinglian thought (An extreme reformer in contrast to Luther and even Calvin. His doctrine is leaning towards Rationalism), which would mainly be Baptist, Charismatic, Pentecostal, non-denominational bodies and most contemporary evangelical churches, reject the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. They don't understand the Eucharist as a means of grace, but view it as purely symbolic and simply as a memorial-rite, commanded by Jesus. Because of this, they in effect only celebrate it because they were commanded to, and so it becomes something to obey rather than something to trust in. But Christ gave us a promise in the Eucharist, as it's His last will before He was crucified, that He gives us His body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. We don't obey a promise, but we trust in it.

The Roman Sacramental system is quite complex. I don't mean this in a negative sense, for although we disagree on many points, there are still many good aspects that Lutherans would agree on. However, it's difficult to do it justice in a few words.

The purpose of the Sacraments in Roman thought is to "apply the fruit of our Saviour's redemption to men by conveying, through their means, to our souls either the 'habitual grace' of justification or an increase of the same and a pouring in of other graces or the recovery of justification when lost." So, already it's very different from the Lutheran understanding, because Roman Catholics use terms like "increase of justification", whereas Lutherans understand justification to be binary; that is, we either are justified or we are not; we either believe or we don't. But in the Roman system justification is understood as a process by faith and works, and the Sacraments serve as fuel for their salvation. This is different from the Lutheran system, whereby we are justified by grace, once and for all, but we are continually sanctified, but this has no bearing on our salvation, but rather it is the fruit of salvation. So in this way, the Sacraments are directly linked to "salvation by faith" VS "salvation by faith and works".

Roman Catholic theology insists that the Sacraments have their power "ex opere operato", which means by the simple performance of the act, and regardless of the recipient's faith. That is, in Roman thought, the believer and the unbeliever alike receives God's grace in the Sacrament. Lutherans reject this idea because it becomes mechanical and we believe it goes against Scriptures, which say that, although we agree on that the Sacraments are objectively true (their existence are not subject to our faith, but they exist and are true on account of God's own word and promise), we hold that the believer receives the benefits of the Sacraments, but the unbeliever receives the Sacrament to his own condemnation and judgment.

Roman Catholics define the Eucharist as a sacrifice in at least two different senses. One of which Lutherans agree on, which is that when we receive the Eucharist, we offer to God a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving. In fact, the word "Eucharist" comes from the Greek "eukharistia", which means "thanksgiving". However, the other sense in which Roman Catholics understand the Eucharist as a sacrifice, Lutherans disagree on. That is, the Roman doctrine of "sacrificium propitiatorium", which is the teaching that in the Mass there is a real sacrifice being offered to God. That is, the priest is continually offering up Christ's body and blood to the Father, just as how the Levitical priesthood in the OT offered animal sacrifices to the Lord. And this sacrifice (which is understood to be the same as the one sacrifice by Christ and not a repetition of the sacrifice, which many protestants accuse Roman Catholics of) is offered both for the living and the dead, to shorten their time in purgatory. Needless to say, Lutherans disagree.

While Catholics recognise that the Eucharist is a gift from God and that it indeed is the very true body and blood of Christ, which we Lutherans rejoice in, the Roman Eucharist becomes a kind of work the priests do. And from this, many questionable practices have flowed, such as private Mass and endless repetition of Masses to merit grace or purge the dead of sins etc. The practices were perhaps more blatant and extreme in the middle ages, but the theology is still the same in our day.

So, while although the Baptist and the Roman Catholic are very far apart theologically, they both operate under some kind of obedience or work. Lutherans don't. We believe simply that God has given us a wonderful comfort for when we are burdened with sin, and that the Eucharist is nothing else but a tangible Gospel; God's grace for us.

Sorry again for the lengthy post. Peace of Christ +
 
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Well, for example, those who follow in the steps of Zwinglian thought (An extreme reformer in contrast to Luther and even Calvin. His doctrine is leaning towards Rationalism), which would mainly be Baptist, Charismatic, Pentecostal, non-denominational bodies and most contemporary evangelical churches, reject the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. They don't understand the Eucharist as a means of grace, but view it as purely symbolic and simply as a memorial-rite, commanded by Jesus. Because of this, they in effect only celebrate it because they were commanded to, and so it becomes something to obey rather than something to trust in. But Christ gave us a promise in the Eucharist, as it's His last will before He was crucified, that He gives us His body and blood for the forgiveness of sins. We don't obey a promise, but we trust in it.

The Roman Sacramental system is quite complex. I don't mean this in a negative sense, for although we disagree on many points, there are still many good aspects that Lutherans would agree on. However, it's difficult to do it justice in a few words.

The purpose of the Sacraments in Roman thought is to "apply the fruit of our Saviour's redemption to men by conveying, through their means, to our souls either the 'habitual grace' of justification or an increase of the same and a pouring in of other graces or the recovery of justification when lost." So, already it's very different from the Lutheran understanding, because Roman Catholics use terms like "increase of justification", whereas Lutherans understand justification to be binary; that is, we either are justified or we are not; we either believe or we don't. But in the Roman system justification is understood as a process by faith and works, and the Sacraments serve as fuel for their salvation. This is different from the Lutheran system, whereby we are justified by grace, once and for all, but we are continually sanctified, but this has no bearing on our salvation, but rather it is the fruit of salvation. So in this way, the Sacraments are directly linked to "salvation by faith" VS "salvation by faith and works".

Roman Catholic theology insists that the Sacraments have their power "ex opere operato", which means by the simple performance of the act, and regardless of the recipient's faith. That is, in Roman thought, the believer and the unbeliever alike receives God's grace in the Sacrament. Lutherans reject this idea because it becomes mechanical and we believe it goes against Scriptures, which say that, although we agree on that the Sacraments are objectively true (their existence are not subject to our faith, but they exist and are true on account of God's own word and promise), we hold that the believer receives the benefits of the Sacraments, but the unbeliever receives the Sacrament to his own condemnation and judgment.

Roman Catholics define the Eucharist as a sacrifice in at least two different senses. One of which Lutherans agree on, which is that when we receive the Eucharist, we offer to God a sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving. In fact, the word "Eucharist" comes from the Greek "eukharistia", which means "thanksgiving". However, the other sense in which Roman Catholics understand the Eucharist as a sacrifice, Lutherans disagree on. That is, the Roman doctrine of "sacrificium propitiatorium", which is the teaching that in the Mass there is a real sacrifice being offered to God. That is, the priest is continually offering up Christ's body and blood to the Father, just as how the Levitical priesthood in the OT offered animal sacrifices to the Lord. And this sacrifice (which is understood to be the same as the one sacrifice by Christ and not a repetition of the sacrifice, which many protestants accuse Roman Catholics of) is offered both for the living and the dead, to shorten their time in purgatory. Needless to say, Lutherans disagree.

While Catholics recognise that the Eucharist is a gift from God and that it indeed is the very true body and blood of Christ, which we Lutherans rejoice in, the Roman Eucharist becomes a kind of work the priests do. And from this, many questionable practices have flowed, such as private Mass and endless repetition of Masses to merit grace or purge the dead of sins etc. The practices were perhaps more blatant and extreme in the middle ages, but the theology is still the same in our day.

So, while although the Baptist and the Roman Catholic are very far apart theologically, they both operate under some kind of obedience or work. Lutherans don't. We believe simply that God has given us a wonderful comfort for when we are burdened with sin, and that the Eucharist is nothing else but a tangible Gospel; God's grace for us.

Sorry again for the lengthy post. Peace of Christ +
At the risk of over simplification; the sacraments are all about what God does for us, not about what we do for God. If one must have "special powers" imposed upon them in order to administer the sacraments, that means that man has an active part in man's own salvation; that to receive God's Grace we have to do something to merit that grace.

Likewise, a non believer still would consume Christ's body and blood where they to receive the Eucharist. The validity is not dependent on one's faith, however the Scriptures tell us that the unbeliever who does so brings God's Judgement upon themselves.

Interesting fact: The Catholic Church looks upon the Lutheran Churches that have maintained "Apostolic Succession" in the Catholic definition as have a valid but illicit priesthood. Those of us who do not, they consider our clergy as being neither valid or licit.

Interesting that currently, the only Lutheran bodies in official and formal Dialogue that with the Catholic Church that I am aware of are the ILC on an international level (LCMS and LCC are members), and on a national level here in Canada with LCC.
 
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