THE ROCK OF OFFENSE AND HYPER D

Skidder said:

1) Did Jesus not die for Abraham's sins as well?
2) Was paradise excluded from "all things" reconciled by the blood of His cross?
3) And tell me how the sinner and their sin is dealt with apart from Christ Crucified?

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Before I comment - Yes I did read your article from Theopedia.

But it gave no example where someone of that stripe denied that Jesus died for Abraham's sin. It gave no example where someone of that stripe claimed that anything was excluded from the all things reconciled by the blood of His cross. It gave no example where someone of that stripe teaches that the sin of anyone is dealt with apart from Christ crucified.

I have been around dispensational teaching all of my life and have never heard anyone teach such things. All of them that I have come in contact with say that anyone saved - from Adam to the last person in history - will find justification before God only by having the work of Christ imputed to them - even though they may not have a complete understanding of that work.

Perhaps you have examples where a dispensational teacher said anything of the sort you claim some do.

Like I said, I have been around dispensational teaching all of my life (I'm74 now). I have for some 40+ years been an active leader in church life and a teacher who has tried to present dispensational beliefs of various kinds as well as all other views such as amillennial teachings when I touch on eschatology so that my student's can consider.

Again - please quote the people who deny the central place of Christ's work at Calvary. Until you do - I'll just consider your OP a straw man.

Thanks for any effort you make to correct me if I'm wrong.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

So far, what I think is panning out - I think there is no evidence available to you, no basis for the op.

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Hi Jeff, hope this finds you well. I am going to plead ignorance here, lol. I am curious as to what hyper-dispensationalism actually is. So I looked it up and from what I can discern, there is hyper dispensationalism and ultra-dispensationalism.

Hyper- believes the full real gospel started with Paul. What came before that was for the Jews only. Jesus's words were for the Jews only. Hyper-dispensationalists believe that baptism was for the Jews only.

Ultra- believes that both baptism and the Lord's supper were only for the jews.

Is this accurate? I just want to make sure we are all on the same page as to what the discussion is actually about.

Thanks in advance.

Gids

Gideons300 said:

Hi Jeff, hope this finds you well. I am going to plead ignorance here, lol. I am curious as to what hyper-dispensationalism actually is. So I looked it up and from what I can discern, there is hyper dispensationalism and ultra-dispensationalism.
Hyper- believes the full real gospel started with Paul. What came before that was for the Jews only. Jesus's words were for the Jews only. Hyper-dispensationalists believe that baptism was for the Jews only.
Ultra- believes that both baptism and the Lord's supper were only for the jews.
Is this accurate? I just want to make sure we are all on the same page as to what the discussion is actually about.
Thanks in advance.
Gids

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< shrugs > I don't know, and don't think it is an avenue for me to pursue at this time. The 'labels' seem to cause more confusion than edification , at least in this forum. (I haven't seen such things in other sites, fellowships, or really anywhere else) (as far as I know or was ever aware)


SOME of the false teachings mentioned, or other false teachings not mentioned, I've seen on and off on the forum(s). Deal with each one as it comes up, if Yahuweh Directs to do so. (the internet is not really so good to do so.) (the errors keep growing and propagating, never stopping, increasing in number daily)

Of course, that is true everywhere in the world, practically, too, and we are told we cannot withdraw from the world (and I don't think we should either, until or when the Father Says to, the Shphrd Jesus leads us to green pastures and still waters('away' from all the deceptions of the world ) ) ....

Gideons300 said:

Hi Jeff, hope this finds you well. I am going to plead ignorance here, lol. I am curious as to what hyper-dispensationalism actually is. So I looked it up and from what I can discern, there is hyper dispensationalism and ultra-dispensationalism.

Hyper- believes the full real gospel started with Paul. What came before that was for the Jews only. Jesus's words were for the Jews only. Hyper-dispensationalists believe that baptism was for the Jews only.

Ultra- believes that both baptism and the Lord's supper were only for the jews.

Is this accurate? I just want to make sure we are all on the same page as to what the discussion is actually about.

Thanks in advance.

Gids

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Actually terms like Hyper and Ultra are so misleading. A clearer way to distinguish them would be

Hyper are Mid Acts, they believe that the Body of Christ happens after Paul was saved, in Acts 9.
Ultra are Acts 28, they believe that the Body of Christ happened after Acts 28.

The most significant difference between the 2 is that for Mid Acts, they believe Romans-Philemon are written for the Body of Christ. But for Acts 28, they only start from the prison epistles, Ephesians-Philemon

yeshuaslavejeff said:

So, my question, WHERE is any evidence at all for the OP ?

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Do you really think no one in the world is preaching false doctrine somewhere?

Jermayn said:

Do you really think no one in the world is preaching false doctrine somewhere?

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Evidence? (is it not true that on the forum, false gospels are posted every few minutes, and stay posted for people to read for years - lots of false doctrines, false teachings, false motives, etc etc etc )

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Evidence? (is it not true that on the forum, false gospels are posted every few minutes, and stay posted for people to read for years - lots of false doctrines, false teachings, false motives, etc etc etc )

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Here's a few links to some false doctrine I found within a few seconds.

(Deleted)

Jermayn said:

Here's a few links to some false doctrine I found within a few seconds.

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Best to delete them before someone thinks you are promoting them.
It's like putting a bowl of sweet tasting anti-freeze down in front of cats... if they drink it they get sick or die.
Not everyone can resist chocolate with arsenic in it.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Best to delete them before someone thinks you are promoting them.
It's like putting a bowl of sweet tasting anti-freeze down in front of cats... if they drink it they get sick or die.
Not everyone can resist chocolate with arsenic in it.

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You asked for the evidence. Also, I wouldn't call them false doctrine if I were promoting them.

Jermayn said:

You asked for the evidence. Also, I wouldn't call them false doctrine if I were promoting them.

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Not that kind of evidence I was referring to.
Almost all 'mature'/ older believers, any any well trained teenage knows the false teachings are all around us.

The evidence I was and am referring to is the specific posts, for instance, that we deal with all day long when here - the posts promoting u.r., out in the open or secretly/subtly as they have been doing for some time in several different sections to try to entrap people who are seeking or who are weak in faith or are little children so to speak, babes in Christ, not realizing the false gospel is permitted to be posted, even with all the warnings if any that are posted ....
A person's own words - not a "false doctrine" somewhere, some time, - but today, what is to be dealt with today....

Jermayn said:

You asked for the evidence. Also, I wouldn't call them false doctrine if I were promoting them.

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And other posters or readers might use the links (if there are links) out of ungood curiosity, and be hooked by something they 'like', some feeling, some emotion, some deception.
Thus the words sure and fine , at least better than the links to trouble.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

And other posters or readers might use the links (if there are links) out of ungood curiosity, and be hooked by something they 'like', some feeling, some emotion, some deception.
Thus the words sure and fine , at least better than the links to trouble.

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I'll delete the sites because I don't want to be offensive to you. However, I would question someones commitment to Christ if they turned away from the faith because they found something they liked within a false religion.

Jermayn said:

I'll delete the sites because I don't want to be offensive to you. However, I would question someones commitment to Christ if they turned away from the faith because they found something they liked within a false religion.

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Good and thank you - where do you believe the false religions get all of their members and recruits ? Most people are not committed to Jesus, not abiding in Him, and maybe never even heard of Him (this surprises me a lot when someone I meet in person at the grocery store, or anywhere else, has a look on their face , whether inquisitive (good) or blank (not so good) when Jesus or anything in the Bible is mentioned - they (15 years old to any age through 79 and beyond) have not heard of the simplest lessons at all ! (they say) ...
So most people have no defense against what is false, themselves, even baby Christians 'caught unawares', of any age, "needing still the milk of the word" ....

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Good and thank you - where do you believe the false religions get all of their members and recruits ? Most people are not committed to Jesus, not abiding in Him, and maybe never even heard of Him (this surprises me a lot when someone I meet in person at the grocery store, or anywhere else, has a look on their face , whether inquisitive (good) or blank (not so good) when Jesus or anything in the Bible is mentioned - they (15 years old to any age through 79 and beyond) have not heard of the simplest lessons at all ! (they say) ...
So most people have no defense against what is false, themselves, even baby Christians 'caught unawares', of any age, "needing still the milk of the word" ....

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No problem. I understand how false religions gain their recruits, but I don't think that say "Islam is a false religion because x, y, z" is a bad thing. If someone goes and looks up x, y, and z, then decides they want to follow that, I see it as like being in the Garden of Eden. God didn't hide the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil from Adam and Eve, he simply told them not to eat the fruit. They decided not to follow God and we see the consequences till this very day. Also, I agree with you that its astonishing how many people have no clue when it comes to basic Christianity. I was talking to someone close to me a while back who had been in church for decades and they said "You know, I kinda believe in God" and I was like, "KINDA!? What have you been doing in church all these years??", and so many others still think that Jesus was just a good guy and that's all we need to be to get to Heaven.