PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

AlexDTX · Dec 2, 2019

Dave L said:
Any documented miracles come to mind?

I have personal experiences with the supernatural and miraculous.

danielmears · Dec 2, 2019

Skidder said:
PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

1 Corinthians 14:1-5
Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But he who prophesies speaks edification and exhortation and comfort to men. 4 He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. 5 I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

This portion of scripture is full of POWER and LIFE. The western church today is so inflamed with division that many fail to gravitate to passages such as these. THIS POWER of the Holy Spirit to the body of Christ is limited on two major fronts…. 1) Pentecostalism, 2) Intellectual Christianity

1) Pentecostalism has poisoned the watering hole in several ways: CHAOS is the opposite of ORDER! Paul lays out strict guidelines on how these gifts are to be administered in the church, and he goes on to say that failure to do so will have costly effects…

“Therefore if the whole church comes together in one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those who are uninformed or unbelievers, will they not say that you are out of your mind?”-1 Corinthians 14:23

And this is not what what many in the Pentecostal church have enforced, on the contrary, the very opposite. They believe they have something the other churches don’t so they pursue reckless abandonment in the name of “holiness”. Because of their lack of discernment and their gratifications of the flesh much of the simplicity that is in Christ will remain hidden from them. Their glorification of themselves over Christ is the very opposite of what these gifts of the Holy Spirit were intended to do, and that is to bring glory to Christ that we may walk by faith in Him.

2) Intellectual Christianity is just as deadly as Pentecostalism. The wisdom and power of God is foolishness to men. These are the ones who rise above spiritual gifts in the name of “intellect”. The supernatural is not necessary for their knowledge of scripture has already superseded any need of revelation and dependency on His Spirit . And they are quick to use the chaos of the Pentecostals to denounce these scriptures. Like little spiritual Einsteins they have calculated the Grace of God to a manageable formula. They treat prophecy with contempt, and thus quench the Spirit’s fire. One of their leaders on the forefront is John MacArthur. He has removed scriptures from 1 Corinthians and proclaims the church in Corinth were speaking a demonic tongues. Another heresy to go with His “Lordship Salvation”. Again, the simplicity that is in Christ will remain hidden in the absence of the truth. If we neglect scriptures such as these we neglect the Lord Jesus Christ Himself for HE IS THE WORD!!

Conclusion:
“Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts”!! That about says it all!! And one more thing before I conclude this presentation... and that is to always be on your guard for the subtleties of our enemy. These divisions are not apart from his influence. He was a liar from the beginning and he knows that divisions such as these will limit the effectiveness of the church. So let us not be unaware of His schemes, but let us walk in a GRACE that is SUFFICIENT and always test the spirits!!.

1 John 4:1
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

I’m not a Pentecostal and I’m too stupid to be an intellectual, just a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who speaks in tongues. So many Christians who speak in tongues are afraid to address the John MacArthurs of this world for fear they may be looked down upon, but we are not of those who drag our fear around like a blanket!! NO!! We are of those who were purchased by the PRECIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS CHRIST!!

Grace and Peace…..

If we pursue love, abide in and simply love others, spiritual gifts will come.

ARBITER01 · Dec 2, 2019

topher694 said:
This is his MO. The pride and arrogance is palpable. I'm pretty sure he does it on purpose and I'm pretty sure I know why. Engaging is a waste of time. You are right others have and will seen through it.

I've run into him before on here, and others like him.

I view him as an example of worshiping men's opinions over and above The Holy Spirit's teachings.

Skidder · Dec 2, 2019

danielmears said:
If we pursue love, abide in and simply love others, spiritual gifts will come.

Correct, God's love is holy and pure, and divisions are not from Him who called us. Paul addresses both in 1 Corinthians. Love will not flourish under divisions, and divisions will flourish without love.

Grace and Peace...

Dave L · Dec 2, 2019

AlexDTX said:
I have personal experiences with the supernatural and miraculous.

The prayer of faith heals the sick. But the claims to the Apostle's signs and wonders are only hearsay.

Dave L · Dec 2, 2019

GTW27 said:
Not so. But you do do your fathers work. Perhaps it is time to lay it all down at the foot of the cross.

If you are part of Christ's body, you rule the universe along with him, seated in heavenly places.

Presbyterian Continuist · Dec 2, 2019

Dave L said:
They reject the Council of Ephesus 431 that condemned free will (Pelagianism) and Premillennialism as heresy.

Arminius, in his own written works, opposes Pelagius. I didn't get far enough into his works to see what he said about Premillennialism. Not all Pentecostals are Arminian. Actually, many subscribe to Finney's theology, and he placed himself somewhere between Arminianism and Calvinism. The Calvinists opposed him because he encouraged sinners to make a decision for Christ upon hearing the gospel, rather than waiting for God to do it for them.

Hillsage · Dec 2, 2019

ARBITER01 said:
I must say it is somewhat interesting.

Let me take a crack at it with my interlinear,...

"Now concerning the things spiritual, brethren, I am not willing for ye to be ignorant."

What do ya think? Good?

I was first exposed to this teaching on 1Cor 12:1 in the early 70's by a third generation Baptist preacher who ended up getting the baptism of the (Gr. from) the Holy Spirit and prayer tongues, during the spiritual outpouring of the Jesus movement. He was speaking at a 'Full Gospel Businessman's convention' in Denver. He pointed out my post's 'point', but also added 'your take' above as a sort of 'also in the ballpark' alternative interpretation. I think that his position would have made a tweak to your above addition with a plural to say;

"Now concerning spirituals, brethren I am not willing for ye to be ignorant."

The reason I say that is because the word for 'spirituals' is plural in the Greek. As for your believing it refers to 'our human spirit' doesn't quite fit for me...but I don't know for sure. It is a troublesome verse for translators. Several years ago I had "TheBiblicist" in a discussion on this forum and he too was interested in the view I presented. He was very educated and possessed a huge translational library. He was also a 'tongue talking Charismatic'....a rare combination in the church body, unfortunately. He confirmed that the view I presented was indeed an accurate interpretation. And one he had not ever encountered prior.

Anyway, 1 Co 12:1 is the only verse in the bible giving us a biblical definition for being considered "spiritual" as a Christian. IOW, as chapter 12 elucidates, it is someone who is moving in the manifestations of the 12 gifts from the Holy Spirit "as the Spirit wills" (12:11)....not as we will. Supernatural gifts which are manifested THROUGH US from the HOLY SPIRIT and given TO WHOM the gift is meant for. We NEVER POSSESS any of those gifts. WE, as ministering priests, have one hand toward God and one hand on man. His gifts are ministered THROUGH us, but are never 'our gifts'.

I like that. Idiots is the correct word, but I don't know how many translations I have on my little esword program where they tried their hardest not to use that word, lol. The closest I found was the use of the word Illiterate.

Therein lies the difficulty we have today, in trying to uncover the 'truth' which the lying pen of the scribes has twisted scripture to say....ever since the day of Jeremiah.

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.

Not a complete worthless lie, of course. But just enough of a lie that I don't believe in 'infallibility' of scripture. Too many 'scripturally tweaked' errors based upon religious indoctrinations...devoid of the leading of the Holy Spirit. IMO anyway.

We always said "The fundamentalists dry up spiritually, and the Pentecostals blow up spiritually." But when you have both true spiritual education and spiritual experience you grow up.

Presbyterian Continuist · Dec 2, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That could be, but it seems leadership was failing to maintain, or establish, order. Fortunately, Paul was able to lay out a framework for them. Probably based on what he saw working elsewhere. Seems he did get around. - lol

It may be, seeing that it was a relatively immature church with members only just rescued for paganism, that a person of calibre such as Paul was needed to bring things into order. It is the same as getting a Mission Enabler in to assist a failing church congregation.

Skidder · Dec 2, 2019

Dave L said:
I'm only Calvinistic in the first three points. And Calvin only believed two of them.

A Calvinist is a Calvinist no matter how many "points". When you strip the Tulip down to its roots it's nothing but an intellectual weed. No surprise the gifts of the spirit are also offending to your intellect. No matter how much sugar you pour on the twisted doctrines of Calvinsm it never changes the heresy at the roots... "that God made some to burn and some for life", with free will stripped from the equation. God is just and fair, the twisted lies of Calvinism are not. Here are just a few of the revealing truths behind Calvinism...

“…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

“The very inequality of his grace proves that it is free.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 6)

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

Dave L · Dec 2, 2019

Skidder said:
A Calvinist is a Calvinist no matter how many "points". When you strip the Tulip down to its roots it's nothing but an intellectual weed. No surprise the gifts of the spirit are also offending to your intellect. No matter how much sugar you pour on the twisted doctrines of Calvinsm it never changes the heresy at the roots... "that God made some to burn and some for life", with free will stripped from the equation. God is just and fair, the twisted lies of Calvinism are not. Here are just a few of the revealing truths behind Calvinism...

“…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

“The very inequality of his grace proves that it is free.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 6)

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

Here's the issue. If Calvin was right, many hate God with a passion and prefer idols they call Jesus instead.

Dave L · Dec 2, 2019

Oscarr said:
Arminius, in his own written works, opposes Pelagius. I didn't get far enough into his works to see what he said about Premillennialism. Not all Pentecostals are Arminian. Actually, many subscribe to Finney's theology, and he placed himself somewhere between Arminianism and Calvinism. The Calvinists opposed him because he encouraged sinners to make a decision for Christ upon hearing the gospel, rather than waiting for God to do it for them.

Arminius was Calvinist on the Job and taught his own doctrine summed up by the Synod of Dort after hours.

Albion · Dec 2, 2019

ARBITER01 said:
If you actually believe in Jesus, then you are to be doing His works, and that includes operating in the gifts of The Spirit.

I certainly cannot buy the notion that Jesus guaranteed every believer that he would receive all the gifts that are listed in Scripture.

topher694 · Dec 2, 2019

ARBITER01 said:
If you actually believe in Jesus, then you are to be doing His works, and that includes operating in the gifts of The Spirit.

Thought you might be interested in this:

I teach a class every Monday on the Holy Spirit. Right now we are looking at the Gifts and the Fruits side by side. You know, examining the notion that all the gifts are available to all believers because God is not a respecter of persons, but they manifest as He wills, so we must first be in tune with Him. How the same gifts that the apostles operated in are still active and flowing today. But also how the fruit of the Spirit is truly what points to and confirms that the gifts are still active today (just look at the poor fruit of those who oppose it).

Tonight's topic? Tongues. The different kinds found in scripture. And, how it is not just babble, but carries the same power as miracles, healings or prophecy... which is why the poor fruit folks try so hard to discredit it.

jahel · Dec 2, 2019

topher694 said:
Thought you might be interested in this:

I teach a class every Monday on the Holy Spirit. Right now we are looking at the Gifts and the Fruits side by side. You know, examining the notion that all the gifts are available to all believers because God is not a respecter of persons, but they manifest as He wills, so we must first be in tune with Him. How the same gifts that the apostles operated in are still active and flowing today. But also how the fruit of the Spirit is truly what points to and confirms that the gifts are still active today (just look at the poor fruit of those who oppose it).

Tonight's topic? Tongues. The different kinds found in scripture. And, how it is not just babble, but carries the same power as miracles, healings or prophecy... which is why the poor fruit folks try so hard to discredit it.

Are you aware of the origins of ‘placing oneself on the altar’ and how that became glossalia?
Lady Preachers and Teachers of the Christian Era

Skidder · Dec 2, 2019

Dave L said:
Here's the issue. If Calvin was right, many hate God with a passion and prefer idols they call Jesus instead.

Only the corrupt intellect of man could ever rationalize these statements.

“…salvation is freely offered to some while others are barred from access to it.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

“The very inequality of his grace proves that it is free.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 6)

“thieves and murderers, and other evildoers, are instruments of divine providence, being employed by the Lord himself to execute judgments which he has resolved to inflict.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 5)

“…individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 6)

“We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 21, Paragraph 5)

topher694 · Dec 2, 2019

jahel said:
Are you aware of the origins of ‘placing oneself on the altar’ and how that became glossalia?
Lady Preachers and Teachers of the Christian Era

Familiar, yes. Intimately familiar, no.

Saint Steven · Dec 2, 2019

Dave L said:
They were born again Jews before he called them.

That's absurd.

Saint Steven · Dec 2, 2019

Dave L said:
No, you cannot see the kingdom unless first born again.

Apparently you have redefined both "the kingdom" and "born again" to fit your doctrine.

Saint Steven · Dec 2, 2019

Original Happy Camper said:
So why in your post why do you refer to both groups as Christians if there is only one truth. One has to wrong

If two Bible verses conflict, I say they are both true. There are scriptures to support many opposing views. Calvinism and Arminianism for instance. Grace and works... on and on it goes.

PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

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