PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

Dave L said:

I do the greater works of Jesus.

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Oh you do,......Jesus healed people by the gifts of healings, have you?

I have.

Jesus spoke by The Holy Spirit predictive statements, have you?

I have.

Have you done any of these things yet? You're saying that you are doing the greater works of Jesus, please present some examples of this to us.

ARBITER01 said:

Oh you do,......Jesus healed people by the gifts of healings, have you?

I have.

Jesus spoke by The Holy Spirit predictive statements, have you?

I have.

Have you done any of these things yet? You're saying that you are doing the greater works of Jesus, please present some examples of this to us.

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We have greater works than these. Who is Jesus talking about in this passage? Hint; it's not the mainline churches who do not do these things.

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:22–23 (KJV 1900)

Dave L said:

We have greater works than these. Who is Jesus talking about in this passage? Hint; it's not the mainline churches who do not do these things.

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:22–23 (KJV 1900)

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Whoa, whoa, whoa,... wait a minute here, you said you were doing the greater works of Jesus,... please present to us some examples of these works you say you are doing.

ARBITER01 said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa,... wait a minute here, you said you were doing the greater works of Jesus,... please present to us some examples of these works you say you are doing.

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You need to study your bible and see for yourself. It's there if you look for it.

Dave L said:

You need to study your bible and see for yourself. It's there if you look for it.

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Wait a minute,.... you made the statement that you were doing the greater works of Jesus, I would like some examples from you of what these works are you say you do.

You made the statement in front of us, you need to identify what it is you are referring to.

I'll give you a hint, it has to be something greater than feeding 5,000 people, greater than healing the multitudes, ect.

Dave L said:

They reject the Council of Ephesus 431 that condemned free will (Pelagianism) and Premillennialism as heresy.

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There is a biblical basis for both predestination and free will. It is wrong to reject fellow believers in Christ who happen to prefer what the Bible teaches about free will to what it teaches about predestination.

And certainly not ALL Pentecostals/Charismatics prefer free will to predestination. Since both have biblical support, I believe both are true. Fully realizing they are in conflict with each other to some degree. I tend to sort this out by saying God's foreknowledge is part of predestination. He knew in advance what our free will would choose.

There are differing biblical views of eschatology as well. You would reject a believer in Christ based on differing views of the end times? Just wrong.

But all this doctrinal hairsplitting is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. There will always be a few puzzle pieces missing. This is where faith comes in.

Saint Steven said:

There's that "us and them" problem.
Since you are Calvinist, you infer that Arminians are "defeated" (lost).
Last time I checked, both Calvinists and Arminians are Christians. I know that concept is revolting to Calvinists (and maybe Arminians too), but there you go.

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I thought there was only one truth, not many

Saint Steven said:

There is a biblical basis for both predestination and free will. It is wrong to reject fellow believers in Christ who happen to prefer what the Bible teaches about free will to what it teaches about predestination.

And certainly not ALL Pentecostals/Charismatics prefer free will to predestination. Since both have biblical support, I believe both are true. Fully realizing they are in conflict with each other to some degree. I tend to sort this out by saying God's foreknowledge is part of predestination. He knew in advance what our free will would choose.

There are differing biblical views of eschatology as well. You would reject a believer in Christ based on differing views of the end times? Just wrong.

But all this doctrinal hairsplitting is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. There will always be a few puzzle pieces missing. This is where faith comes in.

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The Pentecostal denominations reject the Council of Ephesus.

Dave L said:

You are forcing your interpretation onto the passage. Have you done the greater works yet?

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And you AREN'T forcing YOUR interpretation onto the passage?
Let's face it, this is a very challenging passage no matter what your view is.
Right up there with speaking to mountains that cast themselves into the sea.
All in a day's work, right?

John 14:10-12
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

Original Happy Camper said:

I thought there was only one truth, not many

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His name is Jesus.

ARBITER01 said:

Wait a minute,.... you made the statement that you were doing the greater works of Jesus, I would like some examples from you of what these works are you say you do.

You made the statement in front of us, you need to identify what it is you are referring to.

I'll give you a hint, it has to be something greater than feeding 5,000 people, greater than healing the multitudes, ect.

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You assume Jesus is talking about greater healings? Isn't raising the dead the greatest in scripture? You are looking in the wrong direction.

Saint Steven said:

And you AREN'T forcing YOUR interpretation onto the passage?
Let's face it, this is a very challenging passage no matter what your view is.
Right up there with speaking to mountains that cast themselves into the sea.
All in a day's work, right?

John 14:10-12
Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves. 12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

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Raising the dead is as good as it gets in scripture. How will anyone top this? You are looking in the wrong direction.

Dave L said:

The Pentecostal denominations reject the Council of Ephesus.

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Perhaps you are feeling rejected as well?
But then you are rejecting all but strict Calvinists, so...

Dave L said:

You assume Jesus is talking about greater healings? Isn't raising the dead the greatest in scripture? You are looking in the wrong direction.

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I'm still not seeing any examples from you of what you say do?!?!?

You pinned yourself in the corner on this buddy, I was honest and said that Jesus was not operating through me at that level yet, you boldly claimed otherwise.

Dave L said:

Raising the dead is as good as it gets in scripture. How will anyone top this? You are looking in the wrong direction.

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Mark 8:12
He sighed deeply and said, “Why does this generation ask for a sign? Truly I tell you, no sign will be given to it.”

ARBITER01 said:

I'm still not seeing any examples from you of what you say do?!?!?

You pinned yourself in the corner on this buddy, I was honest and said that Jesus was not operating through me at that level yet, you boldly claimed otherwise.

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Would you believe me if I told you?

Saint Steven said:

Perhaps you are feeling rejected as well?
But then you are rejecting all but strict Calvinists, so...

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I'm only Calvinistic in the first three points. And Calvin only believed two of them.

Dave L said:

Would you believe me if I told you?

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I've not called you a liar, I just wanna compare these works you say you do with the ones that Jesus already did to see if they are actually greater.

Dave L said:

Did it ever cross your mind how phoney spiritual gift enactments rob people of faith and cause them to walk by sight?

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That was my point, too. I know the power of God. I know the miraculous never ceased, only people's faith in the miraculous.

Jesus does not do miracles to entertain people, and many tele-evangelists are more entertainment than real ministry. But the power of God is always there for real ministry.

ARBITER01 said:

I've not called you a liar, I just wanna compare these works you say you do with the ones that Jesus already did to see if they are actually greater.

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I want you to look beyond Pentecostalism (think outside the box) and see them in scripture.