Young earth creationism & 40000 year old frozen wolf

swordsman1

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Genesis 1 and 2 are parables; they tell us WHY God created all things not how. This planet is well over 4.5BY old. It is most certainly NOT only 6-1000 years old.

No it's not a parable. The style of language in Gen 1-2 the same as the rest of Genesis which is a narrative account of Biblical history. It goes seamlessly from Creation through to Joseph. It is all presented as fact. There is no indication of Ch 1-2 being a parable.

A parable would be clearly identified as being a parable with a narrator making it clear he is telling a story eg "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." There is no such narrator here.

A parable is a story where real-life is symbolized by fictitious illustrations. What do the stars, plants, birds etc symbolize?

A parable would not contain precise geographical details as Gen 2:10-14 does.

Is Adam a fictitious character or a real historical figure?
 
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mcarans

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No it's not a parable. The style of language in Gen 1-2 the same as the rest of Genesis which is a narrative account of Biblical history. It goes seamlessly from Creation through to Joseph. It is all presented as fact. There is no indication of Ch 1-2 being a parable.

A parable would be clearly identified as being a parable with a narrator making it clear he is telling a story eg "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." There is no such narrator here.

A parable is a story where real-life is symbolized by fictitious illustrations. What do the stars, plants, birds etc symbolize?

A parable would not contain precise geographical details as Gen 2:10-14 does.

Is Adam a fictitious character or a real historical figure?
Using those precise geographic details, we ought to be able to find Eden then right?

The Genesis story teaches us truths about all humans ie. Adam = humanity = me. There's an article around this subject here
Q & R with Brad Jersak - Were Adam & Even perfect people living in a perfect paradise?
 
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swordsman1

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Using those precise geographic details, we ought to be able to find Eden then right?

Right. The Euphrates and the Tigris are real rivers, not fictional rivers in a parable. Look on a map of the middle east and notice that they are extremely close to each other at certain points. No doubt there was a stream in Eden that divided and fed into each. The other 2 rivers seem to have dried up.

The Genesis story teaches us truths about all humans ie. Adam = humanity = me.

So Adam was not a real person? In that case his children (including Seph) were also not real, and Seph's children were also not real... and so on. Now follow the line of Adams descendents in Luke 3:23-38 and Matt 1:1-12. Noah was not real, Abraham was not real, Isaac was not real, Jacob, Judah, Jesse, David, Solomon, Joshua, Hezekiah, Amos, Mary and Joseph, are all fictional characters - which means of course that Jesus too is not real. We are still in our sins.
 
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mcarans

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Right. The Euphrates and the Tigris are real rivers, not fictional rivers in a parable. Look on a map of the middle east and notice that they are extremely close to each other at certain points. No doubt there was a stream in Eden that divided and fed into each. The other 2 rivers seem to have dried up.



So Adam was not a real person? In that case his children (including Seph) were also not real, and Seph's children were also not real... and so on. Now follow the line of Adams descendents in Luke 3:23-38 and Matt 1:1-12. Noah was not real, Abraham was not real, Isaac was not real, Jacob, Judah, Jesse, David, Solomon, Joshua, Hezekiah, Amos, Mary and Joseph, are all fictional characters - which means of course that Jesus too is not real. We are still in our sins.
Where exactly is Eden then? Can you pinpoint it on Google maps?
 
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swordsman1

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Tigr-euph.png
 
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mcarans

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I expect it would have been where the Tigris and Euphrates are closest. Which is near their sources in what is now Turkey or further down in what is now Iraq.
"He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life." Genesis 3:24
There is nothing to suggest that Eden would not exist now so why hasn't it been found?

The sad thing is a literal reading of the Bible minimises both the beauty of the Bible (the richness of the different genres) and of creation (the earth's age and the universe's vastness are belittled) and in effect diminishes God’s glory.
 
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swordsman1

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"He drove out the man; and at the east of the garden of Eden he placed the cherubim, and a sword flaming and turning to guard the way to the tree of life." Genesis 3:24
There is nothing to suggest that Eden would not exist now so why hasn't it been found?

Once Adam and Eve had exited the garden and left it's vicinity, I expect that God caused it to disappear or decay away.

The sad thing is a literal reading of the Bible minimises both the beauty of the Bible (the richness of the different genres) and of creation (the earth's age and the universe's vastness are belittled) and in effect diminishes God’s glory.

I disagree. The creation account in Genesis gives far more glory to God than the Theory of Evolution where supposedly over a period of millions of year all the animals morphed from a single amoeba, and man morphed from an ape.

Another problem is that a non-literal reading of Gen 1-2 is hermeneutically unsound.
 
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kiwimac

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No it's not a parable. The style of language in Gen 1-2 the same as the rest of Genesis which is a narrative account of Biblical history. It goes seamlessly from Creation through to Joseph. It is all presented as fact. There is no indication of Ch 1-2 being a parable.

A parable would be clearly identified as being a parable with a narrator making it clear he is telling a story eg "The Kingdom of Heaven is like..." There is no such narrator here.

A parable is a story where real-life is symbolized by fictitious illustrations. What do the stars, plants, birds etc symbolize?

A parable would not contain precise geographical details as Gen 2:10-14 does.

Is Adam a fictitious character or a real historical figure?

There are a number of creation stories in the Bible, they do not all agree. They are precisely non-historical, they do not tell us how but why all came to be. Oh, and not all parables are allegories.
 
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swordsman1

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There are a number of creation stories in the Bible, they do not all agree. They are precisely non-historical, they do not tell us how but why all came to be. Oh, and not all parables are allegories.

What stories? Presumably you are referring to the additional account in Gen 2. There is no contradiction there with Gen 1. One is clearly chronological (day 1, day 2, etc), the other lists aspects of creation with no mention of chronology.

A parable is a moral story where the fictitious elements which are analogous to real life (Parable - Wikipedia) and it is clearly presented as a story with a clear start and a clear end. Genesis 1-2 is not a parable, allegory, or any other kind of fictitious story. It is presented as historical fact seamlessly along with the rest of Genesis.
 
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mcarans

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Once Adam and Eve had exited the garden and left it's vicinity, I expect that God caused it to disappear or decay away.
The Bible read literally is clear. It should still be there and guarded. To say it has disappeared or decayed is to no longer take a literal reading but to speculate.
 
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swordsman1

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The Bible read literally is clear. It should still be there and guarded. To say it has disappeared or decayed is to no longer take a literal reading but to speculate.

Where does it say the garden would permanently last? If a garden is left untended of course it will decay away. Once it is gone there would be no need to guard it.
 
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mcarans

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Where does it say the garden would permanently last? If a garden is left untended of course it will decay away. Once it is gone there would be no need to guard it.
The cherubim was to guard the way to the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve were expelled according to the verse. Do you think the Tree of Life was left to die?
 
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swordsman1

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The cherubim was to guard the way to the Tree of Life after Adam and Eve were expelled according to the verse. Do you think the Tree of Life was left to die?

It doesn't say the Tree of Life must permanently exist on the earth. We are not told what happened to it.
 
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mcarans

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If God intended to move the Tree of Life after driving Adam and Eve out of the garden, there would be no need for the cherubim to guard it. (And why put it in the garden in the first place knowing that it will need to be moved?)

Rather than making these speculations based on neither the Bible nor scientific or historical analysis, better to have Genesis as spiritual truth, the why, and science as a means to discover the material truth, the how.
 
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swordsman1

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If God intended to move the Tree of Life after driving Adam and Eve out of the garden, there would be no need for the cherubim to guard it. (And why put it in the garden in the first place knowing that it will need to be moved?)

Rather than making these speculations based on neither the Bible nor scientific or historical analysis, better to have Genesis as spiritual truth, the why, and science as a means to discover the material truth, the how.

I never said God moved the tree of life. I said we are not told what happened to it. So I am certainly not speculating.

What is not speculation is that God created the world and everything in it in 6 literal days by the power of his word, as scripture plainly says - as a seamless part of the narrative history told in Genesis.
 
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kiwimac

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What stories? Presumably you are referring to the additional account in Gen 2. There is no contradiction there with Gen 1. One is clearly chronological (day 1, day 2, etc), the other lists aspects of creation with no mention of chronology.

A parable is a moral story where the fictitious elements which are analogous to real life (Parable - Wikipedia) and it is clearly presented as a story with a clear start and a clear end. Genesis 1-2 is not a parable, allegory, or any other kind of fictitious story. It is presented as historical fact seamlessly along with the rest of Genesis.

There are, according to some scholars, 20+ creation stories in the Bible. Tom McLeish lists the following:

(1) Proverbs 8 The birth of Wisdom and her co-creative role

(2) Psalm 33 The Creative Word

(3) Psalm 104 Dynamic Creation – fruitfulness at the boundaries

(4) Jeremiah 10 True (the world) and false (idols) creation

(5) Jeremiah 4 An ‘anti-creation’ story: rolling it all back when humans disobey

(6) Isaiah 28 Creation and the husbandry of agriculture

(7) Isaiah 40 Numbering the structures of the cosmos

(8) Isaiah 45 Creation is the backdrop to history

(9) Isaiah 11 The hope of a New Creation

(10) Hosea 2 A New Covenant with Creation

(11) Genesis 1 The Cosmos is God’s real Temple

(12) Genesis 2 Creation as ordering and forming

(13) Psalm 89 Creation is God’s dominion

(14) Psalm 8 Humankind’s glory in creation

(15) Psalm 19 Creation re-echoes God’s creative Word

(16) Psalm 102v25 Foundations of the earth and heavens

(17) Job 26 Spreading out the skies and suspending the earth

(18) Job 28 Wisdom is the perception and measure of creation with God

(19) Job 38 Measuring out the foundations of the earth and heavens

(20) John 1 Logos as the creative form

(21) Revelation 21 The New Creation

Source
 
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coffee4u

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"The severed head of a wolf that died about 40,000 years ago has been found in Siberia, and because of the freezing conditions, the remains are so well preserved that the fur, teeth, brain and facial tissue are largely intact.

Young earth creationism says the world is in the order of 10000 years old. How does it account for a 40000 year old wolf's head?

First, those of us who hold to YA don't all follow 10,000, but 6,000-20,000. I am sure all evolutionists don't hold exactly to the same things either.

How do we account for it? Easily, The dating methods are wrong because they all have to assume things about the world and time. The very fact the head is so well preserved is a big clue that it isn't anywhere near 40,000.

All your dating 'proof's' doesn't bother us. Facts gathered without taking all variables into account are not facts at all.
 
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swordsman1

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There are, according to some scholars, 20+ creation stories in the Bible. Tom McLeish lists the following:



Source

Apart from Genesis 1-2, none of those are creation "stories", ie narrative accounts. Most are verses of poetry with brief figurative references to certain aspects of creation, others are not refering to creation at all. Only Genesis 1-2 give us the full creation account in the genre of historical narrative. ie. presented as plain fact.

The fact that many other scriptures refer to this creation account as historic fact proves it is true and not a fictional story. Eg. The institution of the Sabbath (Ex 20:11, Ex 31:16-17, Gen 2:3), the genealogies of Jesus, Paul's explanation of how sin entered the world (Ron 5:12, 1 Cor 15:21-22) a key aspect of the Gospel, the institution of marriage (Matthew 19:3-9), the role of women in 1 Tim 2:12-14, etc, etc.

The non-literal interpretation of Gen 1-2 has only been around for the last century or two, since Christians have tried to reconcile Genesis with the theories of modern-day secular science. It is an example of eisogesis - the fallacy of starting with a preconceived idea and inventing a novel interpretation of a text to try and make it fit the idea. It is the opposite of exegesis - starting with the text and letting the words speak for themself, applying the established principles of hermeneutics.
 
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"The severed head of a wolf that died about 40,000 years ago has been found in Siberia, and because of the freezing conditions, the remains are so well preserved that the fur, teeth, brain and facial tissue are largely intact.

Pavel Yefimov, a local resident, discovered the head last summer on the banks of the Tirekhtyakh river close to the Arctic Circle in the region of Yakutia, according to the Siberian Times.

3500.jpg


The head was handed to the Science Academy of Yakutia. Researchers there sent samples and measurement data abroad and with help from colleagues in Japan and Sweden determined its age as approximately 40,000 years, the news outlet said.

Footage provided to Reuters TV by the academy shows the head of an animal, visibly bigger than that of a modern wolf, covered with fur and with teeth visible. Its eyes are missing."

Young earth creationism says the world is in the order of 10000 years old. How does it account for a 40000 year old wolf's head?

Frozen wolf's head found in Siberia is 40,000 years old


Nice that they didn't decide to destroy it as other museums are rumored to have done with the skeletons of giants!

The Smithsonian: We Destroyed the Skeletons of Giant Humans


and.......


NDE of Dr. Richard Eby verifies old earth and gap theory.


Dr. Richard Eby:
......
"Jesus, tell me about this wondrous music all about me. Who is the composer? How is it made? From whence does it come? It is gorgeous!"

I was not disappointed when he began his answer by again asking me:
"Didn't you read my book? Repeatedly it exhorts my children to praise me with music from strings, trumpets, timbrels and voices. It is and was the prime communication of worship and praise and thanksgiving. Since I am the Creator, I am the composer of heaven's music which you are hearing."

Music became the resulting harmony from all of our creations, both of matter and energy. All resonated in unison with us. The elementary form was of and from and in ourselves. I might explain it as a triad of sub-electronic energy particles with and around which We constructed everything in our universe. The wave-forms we called light; whereas the material-forms we called dust of the Earth and water and air. Out of these, and into these, we created animals and birds and fishes and vegetable life to support them. Over these we created a mankind to supervise them as our appointed custodians made in our special image to act for us on Earth!"

Jesus hesitated as I tried to capture the immensity of his explanations.

"You must understand, my son, that original creation mirrored the composition and perfection of Person-God. All creation vibrated in unison with us! There was total accord and harmony everywhere as the whole creation was resonating with and in God!

"Each separate thing or being thus carried out an appointed task in our scheme for the universe. A heaven-form of music resulted as even the stars sang in their appointed circuits. Here in paradise you are hearing these melodious vibrations directly upon your new mind, undistorted. On Earth you heard distorted sounds through the air waves. Throughout heaven the music flows from my throne, uninterrupted, undefiled, and peace-giving."

Jesus paused again.
"My book tells of the time when Lucifer's rebellion in heaven changed some things. He sought to usurp my Father's throne, assume his position as the most high God, and to rule the universe. For that blasphemy Lucifer was cast from heaven to Earth; in fact, I saw him fall as a bolt of lightning! In a tantrum of hate and rage over being deposed so fast he and his fallen angels disfigured our perfect Earth. It became void and uninhabitable. For punishment befitting his enemy of God, Lucifer was given a new name, Satan, since he was the self-appointed "adversary' of the Almighty. Anything that God had made, Satan would attempt to destroy from then on. As Lucifer he had been created the highest angel about the throne, one of his assignments and talents being the chief musician in charge of worship and music. In his rebellious anger he set about destroying harmony on and in the Earth from then on. That is why the Earth where he operates now is out of harmony with God's other creations. In my book we call this disharmony "sin', because it defies God's will that even the heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament show his handiwork.

"But be of good cheer, my son. The Father has permitted me to overcome Satan's world system of sin, and to destroy the works of Satan, and to re-establish righteousness in the hearts of my friends. Eventually in his chosen time he will restore all creation as it once was, in him!" (Dr. Richard Eby, near-death.com)
 
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