PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

Oscarr said:

I firm believe that having the Holy Spirit means having everything that He has for us in the way of gifts to be used to build up the body of Christ. Our particular role in the body of Christ is just one factor and our faith is another. Romans 12:6 says let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith that we have. If it applies to prophecy then it would apply to the other gifts as well.

So, in a sense we have all the gifts of the Spirit that we need to perform any function in the body of Christ that is needed. So I guess that it is a combination of the particular role and the level faith to use them.

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The Cessationists have made an amputee of the body of Christ. Hacking off limbs and discarding them as rubbish. With the "closed canon" comes a closed mind. They have gagged the mouth of the Spirit so as not to hear any new revelation.

ARBITER01 said:

...I do believe any Christian can possess all of them.

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My view is that we don't possess the manifestations (gifts) but rather, they possess us. They are, after all, manifestations of the Spirit. The word gifts, to me, is a misnomer.

My personal experience has been that God "borrows" me a manifestation when we need it to accomplish a specific supernatural ministry task. I do not continue to possess it after that.

Saint Steven said:

My view is that we don't possess the manifestations (gifts) but rather, they possess us. They are, after all, manifestations of the Spirit. The word gifts, to me, is a misnomer.

My personal experience has been that God "borrows" me a manifestation when we need it to accomplish a specific supernatural ministry task. I do not continue to possess it after that.

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I've had them described to me as the Spirit's "tools of trade" which is a good way of viewing them.

AlexDTX said:

I think you misunderstood my statement.

Luk_23:8 And when Herod saw Jesus, he was exceeding glad: for he was desirous to see him of a long season, because he had heard many things of him; and he hoped to have seen some miracle done by him.

Jesus did not give Herod a show.

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OK, you're right I don't understand you or your statements..again. And I'll quit trying to because there are others needing time for responses. So I think it best you find someone else to hopefully better understand you.

Dave L said:

The "ungifted" have Scripture which is complete. Unlike tongues and prophecy which were in part.

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OK, another response leaving me free to agree that if this makes sense to you, 'we' don't need to waste time either.

Oscarr said:

Huh? I didn't think the Pentecostal movement didn't start until the early 20th Century! Do you think that Luther was being prophetic?

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Whoever told you that. I have a book entitled, (you will need to lake a long breath to read it)

The
Modern Claims to the Possession of the Extraordinary
Gifts Of The Spirit
Stated and Examined
and Compared with
The Most Remarkable Cases of a Similar Kind That Have
Occurred in the Christian Church
With
Some General Observations on the Subject
Second Edition
With Numerous Additions, and
An Appendix
On the Heresy which Which the Claims are Connected
By Rev. William Goode, AM
Published in 1833.*

Mr Goode says that these manifestations have frequently happened in the past but have been swept under the carpet, perhaps unwisely.

In the 18th Century, there were the French prophets, or Camisards who were persecuted by the state and some came here to the UK. In His Journal, Charles Wesley mentions sharing an hotel room with one of them and said in his Journal "He gobbled like a turkey [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] all night long."

*I remember seeing the first edition of this online some time ago. It was published in 1833

Oscarr said:

I've had them described to me as the Spirit's "tools of trade" which is a good way of viewing them.

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That's a good way to look at it. Like a wrench that turns a nut. (repent) - lol

I think the bottom line to all this is our definition of "Intellectual Christianity". I really don't think that there is any conflict between the two, if people don't turn their brains and common sense off as soon as they walk into church.

Unfortunately some do, and they are depending on some sort of "voice" which they think is the Holy Spirit, instead of doing a careful and thorough study of the written Scriptures. When Jesus showed the prophecies about Himself to the two disciples at Emmaeus, He didn't just tell them, but went through the written Scriptures with them and showed them all the prophecies. Even though He is the Lord of all, and God, He did't expect those disciples to take just His word for it. He proved what He was saying through the Scriptures.

This goes right against some who say the written Scriptures are the "dead letter" and it is the "voice" of the Spirit that is more important; and so they teach that academic study of the Scriptures is somehow sinful and those who do it are lacking in true faith.

The Bereans didn't take Paul's word at face value. They searched the Scriptures daily to make sure that what Paul was preaching was true.

One good preacher said recently was that when the Holy Spirit speaks to us, He is updating us on what He has already said in the Scriptures. John says that we should not believe every spirit, but to test the spirits to make sure we are listening to and believing the right one. How are we going to do that? By going back to the "manual" which contains everything that the Spirit has already said to mankind, because it is all there within those pages, and, like the Bereans and Jesus Himself, we need to ratify that the inner voice that we are perceiving, and what it is saying is really true, from the written Scriptures.

Oscarr said:

Huh? I didn't think the Pentecostal movement didn't start until the early 20th Century! Do you think that Luther was being prophetic?

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Probably more like the early 19th century. However, David had a point...sort of. During Luther's time, there were extreme emotionalists whom most of the leading Reformers disdained, and it would be possible to see them as forerunners or something like that.

David Kent said:

Whoever told you that. I have a book entitled, (you will need to lake a long breath to read it)

The
Modern Claims to the Possession of the Extraordinary
Gifts Of The Spirit
Stated and Examined
and Compared with
The Most Remarkable Cases of a Similar Kind That Have
Occurred in the Christian Church
With
Some General Observations on the Subject
Second Edition
With Numerous Additions, and
An Appendix
On the Heresy which Which the Claims are Connected
By Rev. William Goode, AM
Published in 1833.*

Mr Goode says that these manifestations have frequently happened in the past but have been swept under the carpet, perhaps unwisely.

In the 18th Century, there were the French prophets, or Camisards who were persecuted by the state and some came here to the UK. In His Journal, Charles Wesley mentions sharing an hotel room with one of them and said in his Journal "He gobbled like a turkey [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] all night long."

*I remember seeing the first edition of this online some time ago. It was published in 1834.

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Here's something probably shorter and more current. And certainly with a shorter title.

The Manifestations of the Spirit in Church History - Mike Bickle - IHOP
https://mikebickle.org/articles/pdfs/The_Manifestations_of_the_Spirit_in_Church_History.pdf

Oscarr said:

I think the bottom line to all this is our definition of "Intellectual Christianity". I really don't think that there is any conflict between the two, if people don't turn their brains and common sense off as soon as they walk into church.

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A matter of balance I think. Not one or the other. Which I think was the point of the OP.

1 Corinthians 14:14-15
For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

David Kent said:

In His Journal, Charles Wesley mentions sharing an hotel room with one of them and said in his Journal "He gobbled like a turkey [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] all night long."

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That's really funny!

I guess that some foreign languages do sound like that. I hear a lot of Hindi and Chinese being spoken on the bus to work and it sure sounds like it to me!

I have a personal friend who, when he spoke in tongues it sounded very disjointed and didn't sound like a language at all; yet in a prayer meeting a Ghanaian visitor told him that he was praising God in his own village dialect! So, you never know!

Actually, it was reported that John Wesley (Charles Wesley was the one who wrote the hymns), had 250 validated divine healings, including that of his horse, during his ministry.

It is remarkable that his horse had faith to be healed of lameness!

Saint Steven said:

That's a good way to look at it. Like a wrench that turns a nut. (repent) - lol

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What! One doesn't have to be a nut to be a good Pentecostal but it sure helps???

Albion said:

Probably more like the early 19th century. However, David had a point...sort of. During Luther's time, there were extreme emotionalists whom most of the leading Reformers disdained, and it would be possible to see them as forerunners or something like that.

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The book "2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity" by Eddie Hyatt is a very interesting book that describes many of these movements.

Oscarr said:

How would you interpret this verse, in relation to sound doctrine being an important foundation for the believer?

"I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them" (Romans 16:17).

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I would say it would be important as to just exactly 'who' and 'what' doctrines and people were being discussed 2,000 years ago. Let's just say if it were; Calvinsm vs Armenian, infant baptism vs. Anabaptist, transubstantiation vs subsubstantiation, sprinkling vs dunking etc. etc, etc. I think you get my point.

The nominal church of today simply has a plethora of qualifiers to the verse you quote above. And actually, as pertains to the subject at hand, those here who don't want tongue talking charismatics in 'their church' would be the divisive bunch. Our Charimatic church probably has more non tongue speakers than it does those who do. And they are welcome without any division at all, on our part. Unlike the poor reformed Baptist pastor who had to defend me in his elder's meetings.

Also, if you happen to hear me praying in tongues, you would not think I was drunk at all, brecause I would not be exhibiting any of the characteristics. You would just think I was speaking in a language you don't understand, in the same way as when I hear, on the bus to work, two Indian ladies speaking Hindi to each other, I think, "That's all Greek to me!"

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And, along those same lines, I would never be all a twitter if I heard anyone 'praying' in tongues beside me in church. Something which has happened. For I know that they are speaking in the language which "NO ONE UNDERSTANDS" just like I don't understand with my 'mind' what is being said by me either. That's because I too am praying spirit unto Spirit.

Hillsage said:

I would say it would be important as to just exactly 'who' and 'what' doctrines and people were being discussed 2,000 years ago. Let's just say if it were; Calvinsm vs Armenian, infant baptism vs. Anabaptist, transubstantiation vs subsubstantiation, sprinkling vs dunking etc. etc, etc. I think you get my point.

The nominal church of today simply has a plethora of qualifiers to the verse you quote above. And actually, as pertains to the subject at hand, those here who don't want tongue talking charismatics in 'their church' would be the divisive bunch. Our Charimatic church probably has more non tongue speakers than it does those who do. And they are welcome without any division at all, on our part. Unlike the poor reformed Baptist pastor who had to defend me in his elder's meetings.




And, along those same lines, I would never be all a twitter if I heard anyone 'praying' in tongues beside me in church. Something which has happened. For I know that they are speaking in the language which "NO ONE UNDERSTANDS" just like I don't understand with my 'mind' what is being said by me either. That's because I too am praying spirit unto Spirit.

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The Maori lady who was bilingual in Maori and English languages had no problem sitting beside me in church once, when she heard me praying in tongues and heard God speaking encouraging things to her in the Maori language! I think that the Holy Spirit enjoys doing unexpected things to prove that He is real and that His gifts are just as for today as they ever were.

Saint Steven said:

My view is that we don't possess the manifestations (gifts) but rather, they possess us. They are, after all, manifestations of the Spirit. The word gifts, to me, is a misnomer.

My personal experience has been that God "borrows" me a manifestation when we need it to accomplish a specific supernatural ministry task. I do not continue to possess it after that.

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Well,...they are considered gifts from The Holy Spirit. I'll quote the KJV since it seems to have the definitions the best in this section,..

1Co 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
1Co 12:2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

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Initially they are defined as spirituals, as relating to the human spirit,...

- Original: πνευματικός
- Transliteration: Pneumatikos
- Phonetic: pnyoo-mat-ik-os'
- Definition:
1. relating to the human spirit, or rational soul, as part of the man which is akin to God and serves as his instrument or organ
a. that which possesses the nature of the rational soul
2. belonging to a spirit, or a being higher than man but inferior to God
3. belonging to the divine spirit
a. of God the holy spirit
b. one who is filled with and governed by the spirit of God
4. pertaining to the wind or breath; windy, exposed to the wind, blowing
- Origin: from G4151
- TDNT entry: 11:32,9
- Part(s) of speech: Adjective

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I would suggest they are human spirit gifts that are placed into us once we are filled with The Holy Spirit. A few can be stepped out and activated by our personal faith, but most require The Holy Spirit to activate them, and this would happen normally during a Christians ministry or office they are eventually given. Everything being to GOD's glory, not ours.

Make sense?

ARBITER01 said:

Make sense?

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Sure.
I was giving my POV which I know is not the standard view, but is based on my experience and what I have learned over the years. I think the standard teaching on the subject in the church has been quite poor. I shake my head when I see books and classes about how to discover "your" gift. Makes me cringe.

How was it done in the NT times? (doesn't support my non-ownership idea, I know)

1 Timothy 4:14
Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

Saint Steven said:

Sure.
I was giving my POV which I know is not the standard view, but is based on my experience and what I have learned over the years. I think the standard teaching on the subject in the church has been quite poor. I shake my head when I see books and classes about how to discover "your" gift. Makes me cringe.

How was it done in the NT times? (doesn't support my non-ownership idea, I know)

1 Timothy 4:14
Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.

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I could be wrong, but I believe the "gift" singular, being talked about here, would be the filling of The Holy Spirit when they laid hands upon him. The prophecy aspect was happening in addition to his receiving of the filling. In other words, a gift also begin operating by The Holy Spirit during the laying on of hands.

Saint Steven said:

My view is that we don't possess the manifestations (gifts) but rather, they possess us. They are, after all, manifestations of the Spirit. The word gifts, to me, is a misnomer.

My personal experience has been that God "borrows" me a manifestation when we need it to accomplish a specific supernatural ministry task. I do not continue to possess it after that.

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The scripture doesn't actually have an explicit noun in this context for "gifts." The noun is implied. It's really "spiritual [things]." Translators have selected the noun "gift" because clearly they are not given for payment or for merit.

When I was in the military, however, we were issued equipment to complete out missions. That equipment was not issued to us for payment or for merit either. Perhaps if the translators had been former soldiers, they would have used the nouns "equipment" or "tools" rather than "gifts."