Who is THE RESTRAINER

friend of said:

EH... wrong

Click to expand...

What Scriptures are you citing for your argument?

Erik Nelson said:

What Scriptures are you citing for your argument?

Click to expand...

Nobody was raptured in 2 A.D., that would have been something documented in history and historically identified if that were the case. Where is scripture that states the rapture has already occurred?

friend of said:

Nobody was raptured in 2 A.D., that would have been something documented in history and historically identified if that were the case. Where is scripture that states the rapture has already occurred?

Click to expand...

Saint Paul describes a rapture-like event at the Resurrection at Final Judgement (in the future) ?

But that would be at the very end of earth history, not before The End ?

Erik Nelson said:

maybe, who knows?

Yet you would acknowledge that those opinions are nowhere found in historic Christianity, for example do not derive from any of the writings of the earliest Apostolic & Church fathers in the first centuries of the Church ?

Click to expand...

The ideas I posted in that last post are revealed in scripture, excluding that prediction about the end that I posted as a response to your own prediction. Yes those ideas were shared by the apostles and Christ in first century Christianity. Scriptures that reveal those thoughts include those scriptures we are considering in this thread from Thessalonians. I now cite additional scriptures which speak to the same issues inside this current post of mine. See those below.

I don't know what those people you call "Church Fathers" wrote. I don't follow men, and I have no interest in their opinions about scriptures. The Bible and revelation by way of Holy Spirit are what inform my thoughts, not the opinions of men, not from those living today or from the past.

You made my point about their apostasy inside the church by calling them “Church Fathers,” because that designation when applied to men denies Christ’s instruction. Also, note the words of Paul in Acts 20: 29-30. There Paul describes this defiance of Christ’s instructions inside the church as becoming a dominant characteristic of the church AFTER PAUL GOES AWAY. Thus Paul was identifying himself as the restraint on this “Man of Lawlessness.” No doubt the other apostles acted as that restraint also.

The Man of Lawlessness’ work was already present in Paul’s day, just as he informed the Christians in Thessalonica. Paul experienced it while visiting congregations. Thus Paul had Christ’s words confirmed to him, by what Paul witnessed. See Matthew chapter 7. Holy Spirit didn’t need to reveal it, because Paul actually witnessed it. Throughout the history of the Christian church Christ chooses members who also recognize this apostasy and do not accept it. Only those members are Christ’s church.

All other congregant members follow these composite groups of men who have entered into the temple of God, Christ’s church, and have set themselves down in positions of leadership, thus proclaiming themselves to be gods. As Christ said, “worship your god, and serve him only.” Because these groups of men demand service visited upon themselves, not Christ, through their unscriptural demands upon congregants, they have made themselves gods inside Christ’s church. Yes these groups have become the Church Fathers instead of Christ for the majority of congregants. And just as Christ claimed some of us, some of us who are faithful to him, would be expelled from the church by these men who believe they are performing a service to God when doing so.

Matthew 23: 9And do not call anyone on earth your father, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.10Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Christ.

Matthew 5:19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven

Atcs 20: 29I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.30Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them. 31Therefore be alert and remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

By your characterization these so-called "Church Fathers" did not share my opinion on just who this "Man of Lawlessness" represents, and they taught it was someone or something different than themselves. Wouldn't that be a natural outcome of their teaching, if they were part of that Man of Lawlessness, whether they were deceived into believing that, or whether they knew the truth about their own conditions?
2Corinthians 11:12 But I will keep on doing what I am doing, in order to undercut those who want an opportunity to be regarded as our equals in the things of which they boast. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their actions.

This Chuck Missler video is about as good and succinct an explanation of who the restrainer is that you will find.

Long story, short ... The restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

Tra Phull said:

In 2 Thessalonians, and what is the nature of the son of perdition who is being withheld? Is it a flesh and blood man - this Man of Sin?

Click to expand...

In some other posts, just now, (from search), I gave 'agree' and/or 'winner', et al in the past.
Seeking the truth, posting the truth, is good.

Did some edification now come from this thread ? Did someone learn WHAT is restrained ? And when the enemy is birthed fully on earth ? etc ..... ?

_Dave_ said:

This Chuck Missler video is about as good and succinct an explanation of who the restrainer is that you will find.

Long story, short ... The restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

Without listening to your video, scriptures do not teach the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. You can't cite one scripture that makes that claim. So if that is what Mr. Missler claims in his video he is drawing a conclusion without any direct scriptural backing. Most times people draw conclusion like that they are wrong. I see that sort of guessing every day I work, from students I teach in my classrooms.

Paul specifically said after his leaving men would arise leading Christians away from the truth after themselves. Since he cited that situation as not occurring until he left he was identifying his presence as at least part of what restrained its growth. He said that sort of lawlessness was already present in his day, but it would not be recognized by most until he left. Why? Because with his authority he prohibited it from taking hold of the church while he was there.

Paul, nor Christ, nor any of the Bible writers said God's Holy Spirit would ever leave his chosen ones, nor did any of those sources say it would ever stop being active on this earth. That idea it will is found nowhere in scripture. Even during the GREAT TRIBULATION God's word will be preached on earth. And many will convert because of that showing God's Spirit will be present, even at that time.

Because Paul served as an apostle and because he said this lawlessness inside the church coming from church appointed leaders would fully bloom only after he left, then it makes sense to reasonably believe that not only Paul served as that restraint but also that the other apostles of Christ served as a restraint to this apostasy.

And if Paul's words were true then we should believe after he left, and at the farthest point after the other apostles died the apostasy fully bloomed. If it didn't by that time Paul's words that it would come after he left were not true.

If they were, and you believe them, then why would you put any trust in what so-called "Church Fathers " taught in the 2nd or 3rd century? Paul left way before then. So if his words came true the leadership and teaching of the church was already ripe with apostasy by that time.

Christ said the gates of Hades would not overturn his church because Christ's church doesn't consist of the many Christian denominations and congregants inside those denominations who claim to believe in Christ. Christ's church is ONLY those individual people that Christ recognizes as his church, and no one else. And those individuals cannot be taken from Christ by false teachers, apostate denominational leaders, or anything else.

The Man of Lawlessness is not someone that arises after Christ's church is taken to heaven. It is organized religions leading people after their organizations while claiming to lead those congregants to God. Those organizations arose after Paul left inside the churches he started in various places.

Woke, obviously, if you haven't watched the video you can't speak to what Mr. Missler says.

He answers, from Scripture, all of your misunderstandings.

_Dave_ said:

Obviously, if you haven't watched the video you can't speak to what Mr. Missler says.

Click to expand...

Or do an internet search. True and false teachings are revealed.

The Ascension of Believers, paralleling the original Ascension of Jesus, occurs at the 2C. So, if the 2C = GWTJ of Revelation 20:9+, then the "Rapture" = Ascension of Believers occurs at FJ at the very End of Earth Time:

Woke said:

I don't know what those people you call "Church Fathers" wrote. I don't follow men, and I have no interest in their opinions about scriptures. The Bible and revelation by way of Holy Spirit are what inform my thoughts, not the opinions of men, not from those living today or from the past...

Click to expand...

the CF were the original leaders of the church in the earliest centuries AD

They were guided by the HS, as has been the Church?

Being much closer in time to the Apostles themselves, they had a much better view of original doctrine

You are also a man, Chuck Missler is also a man... why should anyone believe you? The early CFs quoted scripture as much as you and Missler, so much so that they collectively quoted almost every word of the entire Bible, OT & NT!

So you are making yourself out to be a "modern CF" capable of authoritatively interpreting Scripture, whilst denying the same authority to the earliest Church leaders who built the spiritual structure you now inhabit thanks to them!

If what you say today conflicts with what the "Chuck Misslers of the first centuries AD" said way back when... whom should everyone believe? "Chuck Missler, Sr." (=CFs) or "Chuck Missler, Jr." (=you & modern interpreters) ?

If Chuck Missler is worthy of time, then so is Saint Irenaeus and the early CFs?

_Dave_ said:

This Chuck Missler video is about as good and succinct an explanation of who the restrainer is that you will find.

Long story, short ... The restrainer is the Holy Spirit.

Click to expand...

Very informative!

The "man of lawlessness" will try to "fake the 2C" and claim to be the Messiah come (again)

that will trigger the real actual factual 2C of Christ from heaven

(insofar as the 2C = GWTJ at FJ = Rev 20:9+, then The End of Earth Time will be triggered)

Woke said:

Without listening to your video, scriptures do not teach the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. You can't cite one scripture that makes that claim. ...

Click to expand...

Woke, I must partially disagree. No, there is no verse that says in so many words, "the Holy Spirit is the restrainer." But it is certainly inferred.

Paul starts out his passage in 2 thes. 2 giving us the THEME: it is the gathering. Yet, many people have theories about this passage that leave out the gathering! The correct theory - Paul's intent - is that he is certainly going to show us the gathering.

Next, there is confusion among the Greek texts about "the day of Christ" vs "the day of the Lord." We cannot be sure which text is right. However, in his first letter to these people Paul wrote this: "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night," and it is in a passage about the rapture: the rapture coming just before "the Day." It would seem then that the texts that use "day of the Lord" are probably correct. And "Day of the Lord" makes sense for the Old Testament verses on "the Day" make it a very scary time. These people had heard that they were now IN the Day of the Lord: it had begun and they were IN it. Yet, in His first letter, Paul told then they were to be caught up before the Day of the Lord. It is very logical then why they were upset. They either thought Paul was wrong - or that the DAY had come and they were left behind.

In verses 6 - 8 Paul tells us that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed yet, because there is a restraining force holding back that revealing. God is not going to allow him to be revealed before the right time. Paul further tells us that this force is going to be "taken out of the way" so that the man of sin WILL BE revealed at the right time.

No, look at verse 3b: (NASB) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the "apostasia" (Greek) comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

(I changed that one word back to the Greek.)

Now, look at that verse and answer this question: in 3b, IS the man of sin revealed (in Paul's argument)? Notice this translation: IS revealed.."

One therefore must conclude then, that Paul's intent here is that at this moment in time, the restrainer has now been "taken out of the way" and that the man of sin is now revealed (revealed as the Beast of chapter 13).)

Paul goes on to PROVE this is his intent, telling us what this man of sin will do once the restrainer has been removed: "He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God." So without a doubt, at this exact point in Paul's argument the man of sin IS revealed, and we know from verses 6-8 that therefore the force restraining him IS "taken out of the way."

Therefore, somewhere in verse 3a there must be something or someone "taken out of the way."
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. It cannot be here.
For that day will not come It is not here.
unless the "apostasia" (Greek) comes first Now we find something that COULD mean a "taking out of the way."
Notice this translation:
Tyndale: 1535: Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Coverdale: 1535: Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

Geneva Bible: 1587: Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Most of these miss it in one way: The Greek includes
hē:
ἡ
Translated THE departing. Meaning, not just any departing, but a SPECIFIC departing. Looking at modern translations, perhaps ten out of 30 have "THE apostasy," and 4 out of maybe 30 have "the Falling away." Most it seems wish to ignore the "THE."

The point is, can "apostasia" be translated as a departing? Certainly it can and HAS been. Why would God and the Holy Spirit include THE departing? Perhaps because it is the very departing Paul referred to in his opening statement, "the gathering."

When the church is raptured, is the church then "taken out of the way?" Most certainly it is: not by our power, but by the Holy Spirit.

So, look back up and read the verse in red: What must come FIRST? It is the departing or the rapture of the church that must come first.

Did you happen to notice Paul's first words in verse 6? Paul wrote, "and now you know" who is doing this restraining. OK, Paul, HOW do we now know (after reading from verse 1)? It seems Paul TOLD us who the restrainer is, but did it in a cloaked way, so wanted the reader to go back and look closely.

Since we know that the Holy spirit has "all power" and He works through the church, when the church is "taken out of the way, " then suddenly there is no one on earth for Him to work through to restrain. OF COURSE He will be here, but only in the same respect He was under the Old Covenant. People came to the Lord in the Old Covenant, but they were never born again. They never got the Holy Spirit inside.

Therefore I conclude that this ENTIRE PASSAGE tells us it is the Holy Spirit - working through the church - that is the restraining force.

NIV Study Bible Notes says 2 Thess 2:8 almost assuredly refers to the 2C

So, insofar as the 2C occurs at FJ at the End of Earth Time (Rev 20:10), then the "man of sin" will emerge as a fake false (anti-)Messiah like figure...

and so trigger the 2C of the actual factual Messiah, Jesus Christ, from heaven at FJ (which, amidst planet-wide apostasy, would probably not turn out well for earth)

iamlamad said:

Woke, I must partially disagree. No, there is no verse that says in so many words, "the Holy Spirit is the restrainer." But it is certainly inferred.

Paul starts out his passage in 2 thes. 2 giving us the THEME: it is the gathering. Yet, many people have theories about this passage that leave out the gathering! The correct theory - Paul's intent - is that he is certainly going to show us the gathering.

Next, there is confusion among the Greek texts about "the day of Christ" vs "the day of the Lord." We cannot be sure which text is right. However, in his first letter to these people Paul wrote this: "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night," and it is in a passage about the rapture: the rapture coming just before "the Day." It would seem then that the texts that use "day of the Lord" are probably correct. And "Day of the Lord" makes sense for the Old Testament verses on "the Day" make it a very scary time. These people had heard that they were now IN the Day of the Lord: it had begun and they were IN it. Yet, in His first letter, Paul told then they were to be caught up before the Day of the Lord. It is very logical then why they were upset. They either thought Paul was wrong - or that the DAY had come and they were left behind.

In verses 6 - 8 Paul tells us that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed yet, because there is a restraining force holding back that revealing. God is not going to allow him to be revealed before the right time. Paul further tells us that this force is going to be "taken out of the way" so that the man of sin WILL BE revealed at the right time.

No, look at verse 3b: (NASB) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the "apostasia" (Greek) comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

(I changed that one word back to the Greek.)

Now, look at that verse and answer this question: in 3b, IS the man of sin revealed (in Paul's argument)? Notice this translation: IS revealed.."

One therefore must conclude then, that Paul's intent here is that at this moment in time, the restrainer has now been "taken out of the way" and that the man of sin is now revealed (revealed as the Beast of chapter 13).)

Paul goes on to PROVE this is his intent, telling us what this man of sin will do once the restrainer has been removed: "He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God." So without a doubt, at this exact point in Paul's argument the man of sin IS revealed, and we know from verses 6-8 that therefore the force restraining him IS "taken out of the way."

Therefore, somewhere in verse 3a there must be something or someone "taken out of the way."
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. It cannot be here.
For that day will not come It is not here.
unless the "apostasia" (Greek) comes first Now we find something that COULD mean a "taking out of the way."
Notice this translation:
Tyndale: 1535: Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Coverdale: 1535: Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

Geneva Bible: 1587: Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Most of these miss it in one way: The Greek includes
hē:
ἡ
Translated THE departing. Meaning, not just any departing, but a SPECIFIC departing. Looking at modern translations, perhaps ten out of 30 have "THE apostasy," and 4 out of maybe 30 have "the Falling away." Most it seems wish to ignore the "THE."

The point is, can "apostasia" be translated as a departing? Certainly it can and HAS been. Why would God and the Holy Spirit include THE departing? Perhaps because it is the very departing Paul referred to in his opening statement, "the gathering."

When the church is raptured, is the church then "taken out of the way?" Most certainly it is: not by our power, but by the Holy Spirit.

So, look back up and read the verse in red: What must come FIRST? It is the departing or the rapture of the church that must come first.

Did you happen to notice Paul's first words in verse 6? Paul wrote, "and now you know" who is doing this restraining. OK, Paul, HOW do we now know (after reading from verse 1)? It seems Paul TOLD us who the restrainer is, but did it in a cloaked way, so wanted the reader to go back and look closely.

Since we know that the Holy spirit has "all power" and He works through the church, when the church is "taken out of the way, " then suddenly there is no one on earth for Him to work through to restrain. OF COURSE He will be here, but only in the same respect He was under the Old Covenant. People came to the Lord in the Old Covenant, but they were never born again. They never got the Holy Spirit inside.

Therefore I conclude that this ENTIRE PASSAGE tells us it is the Holy Spirit - working through the church - that is the restraining force.

Click to expand...

the original inspired 1st century Greek reads,


apostasy => apocalypse (unveiling) of the man of the apoleia (destruction) => Day of the Lord

If who exactly is the man of sin is not obvious, then the Day of the Lord (2C) has not been triggered yet

iamlamad said:

Woke, I must partially disagree. No, there is no verse that says in so many words, "the Holy Spirit is the restrainer." But it is certainly inferred.

Paul starts out his passage in 2 thes. 2 giving us the THEME: it is the gathering. Yet, many people have theories about this passage that leave out the gathering! The correct theory - Paul's intent - is that he is certainly going to show us the gathering.

Next, there is confusion among the Greek texts about "the day of Christ" vs "the day of the Lord." We cannot be sure which text is right. However, in his first letter to these people Paul wrote this: "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night," and it is in a passage about the rapture: the rapture coming just before "the Day." It would seem then that the texts that use "day of the Lord" are probably correct. And "Day of the Lord" makes sense for the Old Testament verses on "the Day" make it a very scary time. These people had heard that they were now IN the Day of the Lord: it had begun and they were IN it. Yet, in His first letter, Paul told then they were to be caught up before the Day of the Lord. It is very logical then why they were upset. They either thought Paul was wrong - or that the DAY had come and they were left behind.

In verses 6 - 8 Paul tells us that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed yet, because there is a restraining force holding back that revealing. God is not going to allow him to be revealed before the right time. Paul further tells us that this force is going to be "taken out of the way" so that the man of sin WILL BE revealed at the right time.

No, look at verse 3b: (NASB) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the "apostasia" (Greek) comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

(I changed that one word back to the Greek.)

Now, look at that verse and answer this question: in 3b, IS the man of sin revealed (in Paul's argument)? Notice this translation: IS revealed.."


One therefore must conclude then, that Paul's intent here is that at this moment in time, the restrainer has now been "taken out of the way" and that the man of sin is now revealed (revealed as the Beast of chapter 13).)

Paul goes on to PROVE this is his intent, telling us what this man of sin will do once the restrainer has been removed: "He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God." So without a doubt, at this exact point in Paul's argument the man of sin IS revealed, and we know from verses 6-8 that therefore the force restraining him IS "taken out of the way."

Therefore, somewhere in verse 3a there must be something or someone "taken out of the way."
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. It cannot be here.
For that day will not come It is not here.
unless the "apostasia" (Greek) comes first Now we find something that COULD mean a "taking out of the way."
Notice this translation:
Tyndale: 1535: Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion

Coverdale: 1535: Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,

Geneva Bible: 1587: Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,

Most of these miss it in one way: The Greek includes
hē:
ἡ
Translated THE departing. Meaning, not just any departing, but a SPECIFIC departing. Looking at modern translations, perhaps ten out of 30 have "THE apostasy," and 4 out of maybe 30 have "the Falling away." Most it seems wish to ignore the "THE."

The point is, can "apostasia" be translated as a departing? Certainly it can and HAS been. Why would God and the Holy Spirit include THE departing? Perhaps because it is the very departing Paul referred to in his opening statement, "the gathering."

When the church is raptured, is the church then "taken out of the way?" Most certainly it is: not by our power, but by the Holy Spirit.

So, look back up and read the verse in red: What must come FIRST? It is the departing or the rapture of the church that must come first.

Did you happen to notice Paul's first words in verse 6? Paul wrote, "and now you know" who is doing this restraining. OK, Paul, HOW do we now know (after reading from verse 1)? It seems Paul TOLD us who the restrainer is, but did it in a cloaked way, so wanted the reader to go back and look closely.

Since we know that the Holy spirit has "all power" and He works through the church, when the church is "taken out of the way, " then suddenly there is no one on earth for Him to work through to restrain. OF COURSE He will be here, but only in the same respect He was under the Old Covenant. People came to the Lord in the Old Covenant, but they were never born again. They never got the Holy Spirit inside.

Therefore I conclude that this ENTIRE PASSAGE tells us it is the Holy Spirit - working through the church - that is the restraining force.

Click to expand...

The Greek apostasia (apostasy) in your quoted verse certainly has nothing to do with being gathered to Christ or the departing of the Holy Spirit, as your quoted statement below claims:

"The point is, can "apostasia" be translated as a departing? Certainly it can and HAS been. Why would God and the Holy Spirit include THE departing? Perhaps because it is the very departing Paul referred to in his opening statement, "the gathering." When the church is raptured, is the church then "taken out of the way?" Most certainly it is: not by our power, but by the Holy Spirit." (end quote)

Rather that word means leaving the truth about Christ after a person or a complete church was in the truth about Christ. The churches Paul started accepted the truth about Christ when he established them and as long as Paul taught them. He said when he left their situation would change. When? After his departing (according to his statement to the Ephesians-see Acts 20). Concerning apostasia see these quotes from Bible hub below stating what apostasy means:

BELOW THAT WORD "APOSTASIA" IS USED IN THE SCRIPTURE UNDER CONSIDERATION.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 N-NFS
GRK: ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ
NAS: you, for [it will not come] unless the apostasy comes
KJV: there come a falling away first,
INT: shall have come the apostasy first and


AND BELOW THAT WORD IS DEFINED AS A DEFECTION FROM THE TRUTH, AND NOT A GATHERING TO CHRIST OR DEPARTURE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

646. apostasia ►
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
falling away, apostacy
Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy") -- falling away, forsake.

The idea that the apostasy comes before the church is gathered to Christ has nothing to do with the length of time in between those separate events. The events are separate as Paul states. His point is that the first must come before the second. He made no mention that the second event occurs soon after the first event. He spoke instead of the sequencing of the two events. The whole Bible does this many times about various events. You can see it from the creation account, from the Genesis 3:15 prophecy and many other statements in scripture. To assume this sequence in 2 Thessalonians, which speaks of the apostasy coming, and then right after that apostasy the gathering together of the church to Christ, is reading into that scripture what it does not say. Also, as I previously stated, there is no scripture in the entire Bible that claims God's Spirit will stop being active on the earth at any time. If Mr. Missler made that statement he certainly didn't back it up with anything but his own assumption.

As I posted in two previous posts Paul said after his going away an apostasy in the churches he started would come. And that apostasy still permeates Christendom today. It is, and historically has been, only obvious to those who are informed by Holy Spirit. Because other people who believe they are following Christ are not instead following teachings inspired by/of demons and fallen humans unless they are deceived. See 2 Corinthians 4:4. Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, and in many other scriptures, was warning those he spoke to not to be deceived by these apostate leaders in their church groups. The apostasy he spoke of as coming was only coming to the CHURCH, because only those in the church already could defect Christ. The Man of Lawlessness sits himself down inside the temple of God. That is the church. One false teaching the misled people believe and teach is that the Jewish people in Jerusalem will rebuild another temple to God, and it is there this Man of Lawlessness enters and sits himself down in to declare himself God. But in scripture God's present temple is individual Christians, it is not a building in Jerusalem. See 1 Corinthians 3:16-17.

Also, Paul wasn't speaking of a single person who would lead the whole world in some way. He was only speaking of this metaphorical person, which really represents groups of men, as misleading members inside the church as that word (church) is perceived by the general public. Because a person has to have faith in Christ, or at least to profess to have faith in Christ, or at least be a member of a group that professes to have faith in Christ, before he/she could be considered to have fallen away in apostasy. Now Paul does not refer to a single person, but whole groups falling away from the truth. Because this Man of Lawlessness threatens the church by misleading some members, it could not be something that only appears after the church is raptured to heaven. According to scripture he must come and influence members inside the church while the church is present on earth, doing Christian works.

The church apostatized right after or possibly even before the death of all the apostles-per Paul's words, "after my (his) departure." Christ allows those he said are his chosen to know that. Though from a human perspective it should be easily seen by anyone, it is not. Because a deception professing a denial of the existence of this apostasy is a cloak by the Devil. So, even though the Bible warns against its coming most claiming Christianity do not acknowledge its existence. And many who do acknowledge it claim it pertains to others, while they are not a part of it themselves, e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Christ said you will recognize those men by their works. What works? Works that disobey the teachings of the apostles and Christ. Paul, Peter, James, and Jude warned of the same thing-the arrival of these men. However, most members in denominational Christianity follow these men who lead people after their own church's denominational teachings, which historically have from a biblical Christian's point of view produced lawlessness. From an (biblically) unchristian view these apostate teachings have not produced lawlessness. And so another metaphorical descriptor in Revelation describes this harlot as committing fornication with the kings of the earth. They are adulterers (spiritual fornicators) because they profess to follow Christ while instead teaching followers to bend to the ways of the world, following the world's leaders thus receiving the mark of the beast (worldly governments). Christ said many are called but few chosen. So, where are those many that were called but not chosen found? Many of them are found following this apostasy Paul warned the Thessalonians about. See Matthew chapter 7.

As an example, why are many so-called Christian teachers called Father or Pope, which also translates as Father or Papa in some churches? (" And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you
have one Father, and he is in heaven." Matthew 23:9). If they cannot observe one of these commandments of Christ many church members might consider least or insignificant, they will not follow commandments of Christ many consider major teachings. And the deception is they do not teach the major teachings of Christ. So members following them are not members Christ chooses as his church.

“One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much." Luke 16:10


2Thessalonians2:3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.

Woke said:

The Greek apostasia (apostasy) in your quoted verse certainly has nothing to do with being gathered to Christ or the departing of the Holy Spirit, as your quoted statement below claims:

"The point is, can "apostasia" be translated as a departing? Certainly it can and HAS been. Why would God and the Holy Spirit include THE departing? Perhaps because it is the very departing Paul referred to in his opening statement, "the gathering." When the church is raptured, is the church then "taken out of the way?" Most certainly it is: not by our power, but by the Holy Spirit." (end quote)

Rather that word means leaving the truth about Christ after a person or a complete church was in the truth about Christ. The churches Paul started accepted the truth about Christ when he established them and as long as Paul taught them. He said when he left their situation would change. When? After his departing (according to his scriptures). See these quotes from Bible hub below concerning what apostasy means:

BELOW THAT WORD "APOSTASIA" IS USED IN THE SCRIPTURE UNDER CONSIDERATION.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 N-NFS
GRK: ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ
NAS: you, for [it will not come] unless the apostasy comes
KJV: there come a falling away first,
INT: shall have come the apostasy first and


AND BELOW THAT WORD IS DEFINED AS A DEFECTION FROM THE TRUTH, AND NOT A GATHERING TO CHRIST OR DEPARTURE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.

646. apostasia ►
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
falling away, apostacy
Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy") -- falling away, forsake.

The idea that the apostasy comes before the church is gathered to Christ has nothing to do with the length of time in between those separate events. The events are separate as Paul states. His point is that the first must come before the second. He made no mention that the second event occurs soon after the first event. He spoke instead of the sequencing of the two events. The whole Bible does this many times about various events. You can see it from the creation account, from the Genesis 3:15 prophecy and many other statements in scripture. To assume this sequence in 2 Thessalonians, which speaks of the apostasy coming, and then right after that apostasy the gathering together of the church to Christ, is reading into that scripture what it does not say. Also, as I previously stated, there is no scripture in the entire Bible that claims God's Spirit will stop being active on the earth at any time. If Mr. Missler made that statement he certainly didn't back it up with anything but his own assumption.

As I posted in two previous posts Paul said after his going away an apostasy in the churches he started would come. And that apostasy still permeates Christendom today. It is, and historically has been, only obvious to those who are informed by Holy Spirit. Because other people who believe they are following Christ are not instead following teachings inspired by/of demons and fallen humans unless they are deceived. See 2 Corinthians 4:4. Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, and in many other scriptures, was warning those he spoke to not to be deceived by these apostate leaders in their church groups. The apostasy he spoke of as coming was only coming to the CHURCH, because only those in the church already could defect Christ. The Man of Lawlessness sits himself down inside the temple of God. That is the church. Paul wasn't speaking of a single person who would lead the whole world in some way. He was only speaking of this metaphorical person, which really represents groups of men, as misleading members inside the church as that word (church) is perceived by the general public. Because a person has to have faith in Christ, or at least to profess to have faith in Christ, or at least be a member of a group that professes to have faith in Christ, before he/she could be considered to have fallen away in apostasy. Now Paul does not refer to a single person, but whole groups falling away from the truth.

The church apostatized right after or possibly even before the death of all the apostles-per Paul's words, "after my (his) departure." Christ allows those he said are his chosen to know that. Though from a human perspective it should be easily seen by anyone, it is not. Because a deception professing a denial of the existence of this apostasy is a cloak by the Devil. So, even though the Bible warns against its coming most claiming Christianity do not acknowledge its existence. And many who do acknowledge it claim it pertains to others, while they are not a part of it themselves, e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Christ said you will recognize those men by their works. What works? Works that disobey the teachings of the apostles and Christ. Paul, Peter, James, and Jude warned of the same thing-the arrival of these men. However, most members in denominational Christianity follow these men who lead people after their own church's denominational teachings, which historically have from a biblical Christian's point of view produces lawlessness. From an (biblically) unchristian view these apostate teachings have not produced lawlessness. And so another metaphorical descriptor in Revelation describes this harlot as committing fornication with the kings of the earth. They are adulterers (spiritual fornicators) because they profess to follow Christ while instead teaching followers to bend to the ways of the world, following the world's leaders thus receiving the mark of the beast (worldly governments). Christ said many are called but few chosen. So, where are those many that were called but not chosen found? Many of them are found following this apostasy Paul warned the Thessalonians about. See Matthew chapter 7.

As an example, why are many so-called Christian teachers called Father or Pope, which also translates as Father or Papa in some churches? (" And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you
have one Father, and he is in heaven." Matthew 23:9). If they cannot observe one of these commandments of Christ many church members might consider least or insignificant, they will not follow commandments of Christ many consider major teachings. And the deception is they do not teach the major teachings of Christ. So members following them are not members Christ chooses as his church.

“One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much." Luke 16:10


2Thessalonians2:3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.

Click to expand...

The HS is taken "out of the midst" leading to a "falling away" from the Church, and allowing the anti-Christ to arise therein ("temple of God" = spiritual temple = Church)

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Or do an internet search. True and false teachings are revealed.

Click to expand...

I don't follow men. So there is no desire on my part to search the web to read their teachings. Because I claim these words apply to me, from Hebrews 10:16 I follow God not men.

“This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”

Why would I again turn to the teachings of men when I am taught by God?

If you could back up the point you claimed Mr. Missler made with specific scripture(s), instead of his conjecture, you would have. The fact is you cannot. Because what you claim Missler said is not contained in any scriptures. Paul said the Thessalonians already knew what restrained the coming churches' apostasy. For today's readers, who read these words, that still do not know what that restraint was inside the Thessalonian church Paul's words spoken to the Ephesians, from Acts 20:29, identified that restraint over the coming apostasy he warned Thessalonians about. Paul started his second letter to the Thessalonians telling them not to be deceived by such teachers of this apostasy. He went on to tell them that apostasy would only be fully revealed, that is recognized by most of them, after this restraining force was removed. And Paul wrote that the Thessalonians already understood just what that restariner he spoke of was. How could they if it was the mystery many people and this thread declare it to be, as if some debatable unknown? At Acts chapter 20 Paul claims to be a restraining force against apostasy inside all the churches he oversaw. Since all the churches back then knew this, there would be no reason for them to assume the restrainer was the removal of Holy Spirit or departure of the church, as people do today. People believe that today because they have been taught by churches that, for obvious reasons, would never identify themselves as part of that defection away from apostolic teachings, that apostasy that Paul warned would be revealed to Christ's chosen sheep.

Paul wrote,
"I know that after my departure, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. 30Even from your own number, men will rise up and distort the truth to draw away disciples after them."

Those metaphorical wolves would not just enter the Ephesian congregation. They would enter into and become a controlling influence over the church in general. Thus the Christian church as it is considered "the church" by the general public became the Christian religion, which is a separate entity from Christ's church. How do we know that all the congregations were affected by apostasy? Because Christ made similar statements in Matthew 7 about what would happen after his departure. He also spoke of these false shepherds' concern for themselves instead of Christ and HIS sheep. The sheep are not the sheep of a church or denomination as denominations claim them. They are Christ's sheep, and only his sheep.

John chapter 10 reads,

9“I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture." 10 "The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly."

11“I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. 12“He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who is not the owner of the sheep, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. 13“He flees because he is a hired hand and is not concerned about the sheep. 14“I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me"

Erik Nelson said:

The HS is taken "out of the midst" leading to a "falling away" from the Church, and allowing the anti-Christ to arise therein ("temple of God" = spiritual temple = Church)

Click to expand...

A better defining statement is that these ones are deceived by this apostasy and left God, not that they were left by God because Holy Spirit was removed from them. If they ever had it they are the ones that left God first, before God left them. God does not leave Christians who attach themselves to him. God is not partial, and he accepts whoever accepts him. And he stays with whoever stays with him. See Acts 10:34.

These who are led by false teachers follow men instead of Holy Spirit because they choose to. That is why they cannot see. It doesn't matter if they were brought up doing that or swayed later on by men. What matters to God is what they choose to do that for themselves, whether deceived or not deceived. And yes, if they persist in deception when warned against that in scripture and by God's chosen church members God sends a deception to them, so that they keep believing the lies that keep them following men instead of Christ.

But the point that poster said, claiming Mr. Missler's video says Holy Spirit is removed from the entire earth and then this Man of Lawlessness is revealed is completely false. The reason neither he or Missler cannot produce a single scripture to show that is because none exists. That's why it is unnecessary for anyone who knows scripture to listen to Missler's video. The point Missler is said to have made in that video about Holy Spirit departing from any activity over the entire earth so that this Man of Lawlessness gets revealed is false. Yes, Holy Spirit departed from denominational Christianity, but only from there. And that happened centuries ago. God's Spirit still works on individuals he chooses. Even though it does not work on apostate religions. And yet God works all things for HIS good purpose. Because it is largely through apostate Christian sects that most chosen members of Christ's church first become acquainted with God and his word. Christ captures them as his church after that, in spite of this apostasy. Because in spite of false teachers they follow Christ and deny the teachings that could prevent them from obeying him Christ claims them. Most who claim Christianity will not do that. Most will follow whatever teachings and demands the denominational churches they attend place on them.

Woke said:

But the point that poster said, claiming Mr. Missler's video says Holy Spirit is removed from the entire earth and then this Man of Lawlessness is revealed is completely false.

Click to expand...

Again, if you would just watch the short video you'd learn that Mr. Missler does not say the "Holy Spirit is removed from the entire earth."

I'm not going to go into Mr. Missler's explanation of the Holy Spirit's role in the end times because he explains it much better than I could.

Your credibility on critiquing Mr. Missler's video would be much stronger if you would watch the video. LOL