PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

justbyfaith · Nov 30, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
What languages have you spoken as directed by the Holy Spirit?

Some people have thought that I was speaking in Latin (when I have spoken in tongues publicly)...personally I have spoken in more than one language in my personal prayer time...and since I did not know the languages in question, I cannot identify them to you what languages they were.

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

Oscarr said:
That is a popular theory, and it assumes that somewhere between the 120 all meeting together for prayer, there was a change of location for the 12 before the day of Pentecost.

Most likely both events were in the temple as the end of Luke indicates.

What is the antecedent of "they were" in Acts 2:1?

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

rose wabos said:
There's seems to be a lot of confusion over what speaking in tongues means, and how it is used. I will link a video which explains the different types of speaking in tongues. I mostly just speak in tongues to God, and keep it to myself, as to not create chaos in a church setting. However, I do believe multiple people speaking in tongues over others can help facilitate breakthrough.
Here's the video:

The scripture is pretty clear on what it means.

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Wrong again.

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

He was healed. Nothing more is said.

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

Oscarr said:
My source is the New Testament itself and the total absence of any reference to clearly that that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit are meant to be temporary. There is plenty of proof in church history that the gifts declined and ceased because of the apostasy of the church, rather than any decree of God. If you want a source for that, your fingers are as good as mine for looking it up on Google.

Do you believe that what the authors of the New Testament wrote was the "decree of God?"

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

justbyfaith said:
Some people have thought that I was speaking in Latin (when I have spoken in tongues publicly)...personally I have spoken in more than one language in my personal prayer time...and since I did not know the languages in question, I cannot identify them to you what languages they were.

So nobody ever understood anything, including you, when you spoke? Isn't that exactly what Paul was saying was unfruitful?

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 30, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
Most likely both events were in the temple as the end of Luke indicates.

What is the antecedent of "they were" in Acts 2:1?

In Acts 2, it says that the Holy Spirit filled "the whole house where they were sitting". This shows that they weren't at the Temple, but in a private dwelling somewhere in Jerusalem. In Acts 1:13 the disciples returned to Jerusalem and went into the upper room where they were staying. After that Peter stands up and speaks to the whole group which included the women, 120 people in all. There is no mention by Luke that those 120 disciples went to another room in another house at any time and were still in the same place when the Holy Spirit came and filled the whole house.

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

Oscarr said:
In Acts 2, it says that the Holy Spirit filled "the whole house where they were sitting". This shows that they weren't at the Temple, but in a private dwelling somewhere in Jerusalem.

The temple was "the house of the Lord." At the end of Luke he tells us that the apostles were "continuously" in the temple The upper room was too small even for 120 much more the thousands that witnessed the apostle's sermon on the day of Pentecost.

In Acts 1:13 the disciples returned to Jerusalem and went into the upper room where they were staying.

Yes, and Luke names them at that time, all eleven. In fact, if you pay attention to the text it does not say that the women were staying there.

After that Peter stands up and speaks to the whole group which included the women, 120 people in all.

And this does not say the event happened in the upper room.

There is no mention by Luke that those 120 disciples went to another room in another house at any time and were still in the same place when the Holy Spirit came and filled the whole house.

But he also doesn't write that they were in the upper room. The upper room was a small room at the top of a house many blocks away from the temple. When the thousands rushed to hear the source of the sounds they heard, there would be no way for them to enter this room and hear the sermon. They were in the temple.

None of this proves they weren't in the temple. But you didn't answer the question. What is the antecedent of "they were" in 2:1?

NBB · Nov 30, 2019

Dave L said:
Here's what you need to disprove before you can understand scripture on tongues. >The Baptism of the Holy Spirit came only through the two outpourings. Or through an Apostle's hands. Until you prove this to yourself, you will never understand why today's claims to having the gifts are false.

The baptism of the Holy spirit is for everyone today, being filled with the Holy spriit happens in these days. Its the person of the Holy spirit filling you and this needs to be sought after like in the bible.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 30, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
The temple was "the house of the Lord." At the end of Luke he tells us that the apostles were "continuously" in the temple The upper room was too small even for 120 much more the thousands that witnessed the apostle's sermon on the day of Pentecost.

Yes, and Luke names them at that time, all eleven. In fact, if you pay attention to the text it does not say that the women were staying there.

And this does not say the event happened in the upper room.

But he also doesn't write that they were in the upper room. The upper room was a small room at the top of a house many blocks away from the temple. When the thousands rushed to hear the source of the sounds they heard, there would be no way for them to enter this room and hear the sermon. They were in the temple.

None of this proves they weren't in the temple. But you didn't answer the question. What is the antecedent of "they were" in 2:1?

The answer to your question:
"And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers, and in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty) (Acts 1:13-15).

justbyfaith · Nov 30, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
So nobody ever understood anything, including you, when you spoke? Isn't that exactly what Paul was saying was unfruitful?

Evidently you have not been paying attention to posts.

Consider the scripture that was quoted in post #19 (PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY).

Not to mention, that post was directed at you.

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

Oscarr said:
The answer to your question:
"And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James.

They returned where they were staying. End of thought.

These all (the eleven just named) continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers, and in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty)

Click to expand...

(Acts 1:13-15).

It does not say either that the women were staying there or that when they were praying they were in the upper room. Luke tells us that they were "continually" in the temple.

And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy, 53 and were continually in the temple praising and blessing God. Amen.

Saint Steven · Nov 30, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

He was healed. Nothing more is said.

Nothing more? (see red emphasis in your quote)

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Nothing more? (see red emphasis in your quote)

It doesn't say that his filling occurred at this time, it says that the purpose of his coming was so that he may be filled and receive his sight. He ends up spending three years in Arabia being taught by Jesus as we read in one of his letters.

Saint Steven · Nov 30, 2019

Al Touthentop said:
It doesn't say that his filling occurred at this time, it says that the purpose of his coming was so that he may be filled and receive his sight. He ends up spending three years in Arabia being taught by Jesus as we read in one of his letters.

So you are claiming that Ananias was disobedient to what he had been sent to do?

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

Hillsage · Nov 30, 2019

Oscarr said:
Most Pentecostals I know believe that 120 received the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost. Also, they are quite happy with the way their Sunday services are conducted, enjoy the worship with praising and singling to the Lord in tongues and English. And, frankly, they don't give two figs about anti-Pentecostals and are quite happy for them to stay away and go to their own churches that worship more suited to their personal style. So, any criticism of Pentecostals goes in one ear and out the other, having the attitude, "they have their opinion and we have ours", and all the criticism goes off like water off a duck's back, leaving them quite free and happy to worship the Lord in any way they jolly well please!

I agree. And in fact Paul never said the whole charismatic church of Corinth was guilty of any wrongdoing that the anti is are so worried about. The only reason the whole church shouldn’t pray or “sing” in tongues was to keep from offending the party poopers. How else can we even fulfill “addressing one another in spiritual songs”??

Eph 5:19 addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart,

Albion · Nov 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
So you are claiming that Ananias was disobedient to what he had been sent to do?

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

another thought to consider. Being filled with the Holy Spirit doesn't have to mean being gifted with glossolalia, healing powers, "words of knowledge," and etc.

It is generally taken to mean that the Holy Spirit comes upon the person, blesses him and equips him for the challenges of life, etc. just as it is believed happens in Baptism, by receiving Holy Communion, or by receiving any other of the sacraments.

Saint Steven · Nov 30, 2019

Matthew 23:24
You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

Al Touthentop · Nov 30, 2019

Saint Steven said:
So you are claiming that Ananias was disobedient to what he had been sent to do?

And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.

You're dodging the text. Ananias was sent for exactly what it says. But, it doesn't say that Paul received the Holy spirit in this moment. Then Ananias commands Saul to be baptized. Later we'll read that he told him specifically, "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Peter explained to the Pharisees that the Holy Spirit was given, "to those who obey Him." (Acts 5:32)

I personally think that he received the HS after he was baptized, but it could even have been as late as his sojourn into Arabia. This passage you're quoting is not the whole story. Other parts of this story are related elsewhere. Knowing that, a reader can't inject things into the text that aren't stated.

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 30, 2019

Albion said:
another thought to consider. Being filled with the Holy Spirit doesn't have to mean being gifted with glossolalia, healing powers, "words of knowledge," and etc.

It is generally taken to mean that the Holy Spirit comes upon the person, blesses him and equips him for the challenges of life, etc. just as it is believed happens in Baptism, by receiving Holy Communion, or by receiving any other of the sacraments.

You are right. It doesn't mean that one doesn't have to pray in the Spirit, minister to the health needs of others, be able to get divine assistance with counselling others, as long as one is content with sitting in church passively receiving, but never giving to others.

PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

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