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What Scriptures are you citing for your argument?EH... wrong
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What Scriptures are you citing for your argument?EH... wrong
What Scriptures are you citing for your argument?
Saint Paul describes a rapture-like event at the Resurrection at Final Judgement (in the future) ?Nobody was raptured in 2 A.D., that would have been something documented in history and historically identified if that were the case. Where is scripture that states the rapture has already occurred?
The ideas I posted in that last post are revealed in scripture, excluding that prediction about the end that I posted as a response to your own prediction. Yes those ideas were shared by the apostles and Christ in first century Christianity. Scriptures that reveal those thoughts include those scriptures we are considering in this thread from Thessalonians. I now cite additional scriptures which speak to the same issues inside this current post of mine. See those below.maybe, who knows?
Yet you would acknowledge that those opinions are nowhere found in historic Christianity, for example do not derive from any of the writings of the earliest Apostolic & Church fathers in the first centuries of the Church ?
In some other posts, just now, (from search), I gave 'agree' and/or 'winner', et al in the past.In 2 Thessalonians, and what is the nature of the son of perdition who is being withheld? Is it a flesh and blood man - this Man of Sin?
Without listening to your video, scriptures do not teach the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. You can't cite one scripture that makes that claim. So if that is what Mr. Missler claims in his video he is drawing a conclusion without any direct scriptural backing. Most times people draw conclusion like that they are wrong. I see that sort of guessing every day I work, from students I teach in my classrooms.This Chuck Missler video is about as good and succinct an explanation of who the restrainer is that you will find.
Long story, short ... The restrainer is the Holy Spirit.
Or do an internet search. True and false teachings are revealed.Obviously, if you haven't watched the video you can't speak to what Mr. Missler says.
the CF were the original leaders of the church in the earliest centuries ADI don't know what those people you call "Church Fathers" wrote. I don't follow men, and I have no interest in their opinions about scriptures. The Bible and revelation by way of Holy Spirit are what inform my thoughts, not the opinions of men, not from those living today or from the past...
Very informative!This Chuck Missler video is about as good and succinct an explanation of who the restrainer is that you will find.
Long story, short ... The restrainer is the Holy Spirit.
Without listening to your video, scriptures do not teach the restrainer is the Holy Spirit. You can't cite one scripture that makes that claim. ...
the original inspired 1st century Greek reads,Woke, I must partially disagree. No, there is no verse that says in so many words, "the Holy Spirit is the restrainer." But it is certainly inferred.
Paul starts out his passage in 2 thes. 2 giving us the THEME: it is the gathering. Yet, many people have theories about this passage that leave out the gathering! The correct theory - Paul's intent - is that he is certainly going to show us the gathering.
Next, there is confusion among the Greek texts about "the day of Christ" vs "the day of the Lord." We cannot be sure which text is right. However, in his first letter to these people Paul wrote this: "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night," and it is in a passage about the rapture: the rapture coming just before "the Day." It would seem then that the texts that use "day of the Lord" are probably correct. And "Day of the Lord" makes sense for the Old Testament verses on "the Day" make it a very scary time. These people had heard that they were now IN the Day of the Lord: it had begun and they were IN it. Yet, in His first letter, Paul told then they were to be caught up before the Day of the Lord. It is very logical then why they were upset. They either thought Paul was wrong - or that the DAY had come and they were left behind.
In verses 6 - 8 Paul tells us that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed yet, because there is a restraining force holding back that revealing. God is not going to allow him to be revealed before the right time. Paul further tells us that this force is going to be "taken out of the way" so that the man of sin WILL BE revealed at the right time.
No, look at verse 3b: (NASB) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the "apostasia" (Greek) comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.
(I changed that one word back to the Greek.)
Now, look at that verse and answer this question: in 3b, IS the man of sin revealed (in Paul's argument)? Notice this translation: IS revealed.."
One therefore must conclude then, that Paul's intent here is that at this moment in time, the restrainer has now been "taken out of the way" and that the man of sin is now revealed (revealed as the Beast of chapter 13).)
Paul goes on to PROVE this is his intent, telling us what this man of sin will do once the restrainer has been removed: "He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God." So without a doubt, at this exact point in Paul's argument the man of sin IS revealed, and we know from verses 6-8 that therefore the force restraining him IS "taken out of the way."
Therefore, somewhere in verse 3a there must be something or someone "taken out of the way."
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. It cannot be here.
For that day will not come It is not here.
unless the "apostasia" (Greek) comes first Now we find something that COULD mean a "taking out of the way."
Notice this translation:
Tyndale: 1535: Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion
Coverdale: 1535: Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,
Geneva Bible: 1587: Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
Most of these miss it in one way: The Greek includes
hē:
ἡ
Translated THE departing. Meaning, not just any departing, but a SPECIFIC departing. Looking at modern translations, perhaps ten out of 30 have "THE apostasy," and 4 out of maybe 30 have "the Falling away." Most it seems wish to ignore the "THE."
The point is, can "apostasia" be translated as a departing? Certainly it can and HAS been. Why would God and the Holy Spirit include THE departing? Perhaps because it is the very departing Paul referred to in his opening statement, "the gathering."
When the church is raptured, is the church then "taken out of the way?" Most certainly it is: not by our power, but by the Holy Spirit.
So, look back up and read the verse in red: What must come FIRST? It is the departing or the rapture of the church that must come first.
Did you happen to notice Paul's first words in verse 6? Paul wrote, "and now you know" who is doing this restraining. OK, Paul, HOW do we now know (after reading from verse 1)? It seems Paul TOLD us who the restrainer is, but did it in a cloaked way, so wanted the reader to go back and look closely.
Since we know that the Holy spirit has "all power" and He works through the church, when the church is "taken out of the way, " then suddenly there is no one on earth for Him to work through to restrain. OF COURSE He will be here, but only in the same respect He was under the Old Covenant. People came to the Lord in the Old Covenant, but they were never born again. They never got the Holy Spirit inside.
Therefore I conclude that this ENTIRE PASSAGE tells us it is the Holy Spirit - working through the church - that is the restraining force.
Woke, I must partially disagree. No, there is no verse that says in so many words, "the Holy Spirit is the restrainer." But it is certainly inferred.
Paul starts out his passage in 2 thes. 2 giving us the THEME: it is the gathering. Yet, many people have theories about this passage that leave out the gathering! The correct theory - Paul's intent - is that he is certainly going to show us the gathering.
Next, there is confusion among the Greek texts about "the day of Christ" vs "the day of the Lord." We cannot be sure which text is right. However, in his first letter to these people Paul wrote this: "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night," and it is in a passage about the rapture: the rapture coming just before "the Day." It would seem then that the texts that use "day of the Lord" are probably correct. And "Day of the Lord" makes sense for the Old Testament verses on "the Day" make it a very scary time. These people had heard that they were now IN the Day of the Lord: it had begun and they were IN it. Yet, in His first letter, Paul told then they were to be caught up before the Day of the Lord. It is very logical then why they were upset. They either thought Paul was wrong - or that the DAY had come and they were left behind.
In verses 6 - 8 Paul tells us that the man of sin CANNOT be revealed yet, because there is a restraining force holding back that revealing. God is not going to allow him to be revealed before the right time. Paul further tells us that this force is going to be "taken out of the way" so that the man of sin WILL BE revealed at the right time.
No, look at verse 3b: (NASB) Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the "apostasia" (Greek) comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.
(I changed that one word back to the Greek.)
Now, look at that verse and answer this question: in 3b, IS the man of sin revealed (in Paul's argument)? Notice this translation: IS revealed.."
One therefore must conclude then, that Paul's intent here is that at this moment in time, the restrainer has now been "taken out of the way" and that the man of sin is now revealed (revealed as the Beast of chapter 13).)
Paul goes on to PROVE this is his intent, telling us what this man of sin will do once the restrainer has been removed: "He opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits in God’s sanctuary, publicizing that he himself is God." So without a doubt, at this exact point in Paul's argument the man of sin IS revealed, and we know from verses 6-8 that therefore the force restraining him IS "taken out of the way."
Therefore, somewhere in verse 3a there must be something or someone "taken out of the way."
Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. It cannot be here.
For that day will not come It is not here.
unless the "apostasia" (Greek) comes first Now we find something that COULD mean a "taking out of the way."
Notice this translation:
Tyndale: 1535: Let no ma deceave you by eny meanes for the lorde commeth not excepte ther come a departynge fyrst and that that synfnll man be opened ye sonne of perdicion
Coverdale: 1535: Let noman disceaue you by eny meanes. For the LORDE commeth not, excepte the departynge come first, and that that Man of synne be opened, euen the sonne of perdicion,
Geneva Bible: 1587: Let no man deceiue you by any meanes: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sinne be disclosed, euen the sonne of perdition,
Most of these miss it in one way: The Greek includes
hē:
ἡ
Translated THE departing. Meaning, not just any departing, but a SPECIFIC departing. Looking at modern translations, perhaps ten out of 30 have "THE apostasy," and 4 out of maybe 30 have "the Falling away." Most it seems wish to ignore the "THE."
The point is, can "apostasia" be translated as a departing? Certainly it can and HAS been. Why would God and the Holy Spirit include THE departing? Perhaps because it is the very departing Paul referred to in his opening statement, "the gathering."
When the church is raptured, is the church then "taken out of the way?" Most certainly it is: not by our power, but by the Holy Spirit.
So, look back up and read the verse in red: What must come FIRST? It is the departing or the rapture of the church that must come first.
Did you happen to notice Paul's first words in verse 6? Paul wrote, "and now you know" who is doing this restraining. OK, Paul, HOW do we now know (after reading from verse 1)? It seems Paul TOLD us who the restrainer is, but did it in a cloaked way, so wanted the reader to go back and look closely.
Since we know that the Holy spirit has "all power" and He works through the church, when the church is "taken out of the way, " then suddenly there is no one on earth for Him to work through to restrain. OF COURSE He will be here, but only in the same respect He was under the Old Covenant. People came to the Lord in the Old Covenant, but they were never born again. They never got the Holy Spirit inside.
Therefore I conclude that this ENTIRE PASSAGE tells us it is the Holy Spirit - working through the church - that is the restraining force.
The HS is taken "out of the midst" leading to a "falling away" from the Church, and allowing the anti-Christ to arise therein ("temple of God" = spiritual temple = Church)The Greek apostasia (apostasy) in your quoted verse certainly has nothing to do with being gathered to Christ or the departing of the Holy Spirit, as your quoted statement below claims:
"The point is, can "apostasia" be translated as a departing? Certainly it can and HAS been. Why would God and the Holy Spirit include THE departing? Perhaps because it is the very departing Paul referred to in his opening statement, "the gathering." When the church is raptured, is the church then "taken out of the way?" Most certainly it is: not by our power, but by the Holy Spirit." (end quote)
Rather that word means leaving the truth about Christ after a person or a complete church was in the truth about Christ. The churches Paul started accepted the truth about Christ when he established them and as long as Paul taught them. He said when he left their situation would change. When? After his departing (according to his scriptures). See these quotes from Bible hub below concerning what apostasy means:
BELOW THAT WORD "APOSTASIA" IS USED IN THE SCRIPTURE UNDER CONSIDERATION.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 N-NFS
GRK: ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ
NAS: you, for [it will not come] unless the apostasy comes
KJV: there come a falling away first,
INT: shall have come the apostasy first and
AND BELOW THAT WORD IS DEFINED AS A DEFECTION FROM THE TRUTH, AND NOT A GATHERING TO CHRIST OR DEPARTURE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
646. apostasia ►
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
falling away, apostacy
Feminine of the same as apostasion; defection from truth (properly, the state) ("apostasy") -- falling away, forsake.
The idea that the apostasy comes before the church is gathered to Christ has nothing to do with the length of time in between those separate events. The events are separate as Paul states. His point is that the first must come before the second. He made no mention that the second event occurs soon after the first event. He spoke instead of the sequencing of the two events. The whole Bible does this many times about various events. You can see it from the creation account, from the Genesis 3:15 prophecy and many other statements in scripture. To assume this sequence in 2 Thessalonians, which speaks of the apostasy coming, and then right after that apostasy the gathering together of the church to Christ, is reading into that scripture what it does not say. Also, as I previously stated, there is no scripture in the entire Bible that claims God's Spirit will stop being active on the earth at any time. If Mr. Missler made that statement he certainly didn't back it up with anything but his own assumption.
As I posted in two previous posts Paul said after his going away an apostasy in the churches he started would come. And that apostasy still permeates Christendom today. It is, and historically has been, only obvious to those who are informed by Holy Spirit. Because other people who believe they are following Christ are not instead following teachings inspired by/of demons and fallen humans unless they are deceived. See 2 Corinthians 4:4. Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, and in many other scriptures, was warning those he spoke to not to be deceived by these apostate leaders in their church groups. The apostasy he spoke of as coming was only coming to the CHURCH, because only those in the church already could defect Christ. The Man of Lawlessness sits himself down inside the temple of God. That is the church. Paul wasn't speaking of a single person who would lead the whole world in some way. He was only speaking of this metaphorical person, which really represents groups of men, as misleading members inside the church as that word (church) is perceived by the general public. Because a person has to have faith in Christ, or at least to profess to have faith in Christ, or at least be a member of a group that professes to have faith in Christ, before he/she could be considered to have fallen away in apostasy. Now Paul does not refer to a single person, but whole groups falling away from the truth.
The church apostatized right after or possibly even before the death of all the apostles-per Paul's words, "after my (his) departure." Christ allows those he said are his chosen to know that. Though from a human perspective it should be easily seen by anyone, it is not. Because a deception professing a denial of the existence of this apostasy is a cloak by the Devil. So, even though the Bible warns against its coming most claiming Christianity do not acknowledge its existence. And many who do acknowledge it claim it pertains to others, while they are not a part of it themselves, e.g. Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. Christ said you will recognize those men by their works. What works? Works that disobey the teachings of the apostles and Christ. Paul, Peter, James, and Jude warned of the same thing-the arrival of these men. However, most members in denominational Christianity follow these men who lead people after their own church's denominational teachings, which historically have from a biblical Christian's point of view produces lawlessness. From an (biblically) unchristian view these apostate teachings have not produced lawlessness. And so another metaphorical descriptor in Revelation describes this harlot as committing fornication with the kings of the earth. They are adulterers (spiritual fornicators) because they profess to follow Christ while instead teaching followers to bend to the ways of the world, following the world's leaders thus receiving the mark of the beast (worldly governments). Christ said many are called but few chosen. So, where are those many that were called but not chosen found? Many of them are found following this apostasy Paul warned the Thessalonians about. See Matthew chapter 7.
As an example, why are many so-called Christian teachers called Father or Pope, which also translates as Father or Papa in some churches? (" And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you
have one Father, and he is in heaven." Matthew 23:9). If they cannot observe one of these commandments of Christ many church members might consider least or insignificant, they will not follow commandments of Christ many consider major teachings. And the deception is they do not teach the major teachings of Christ. So members following them are not members Christ chooses as his church.
“One who is faithful in a very little is also faithful in much, and one who is dishonest in a very little is also dishonest in much." Luke 16:10
2Thessalonians2:3Let no one deceive you in any way, for it will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness—the son of destruction—is revealed. 4He will oppose and exalt himself above every so-called god or object of worship. So he will seat himself in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God.5Do you not remember that I told you these things while I was still with you? 6And you know what is now restraining him, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. 7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and annihilate by the majesty of His arrival.9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder, 10and with every wicked deception directed against those who are perishing, because they refused the love of the truth that would have saved them. 11For this reason, God will send them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie, 12in order that judgment will come upon all who have disbelieved the truth and delighted in wickedness.
I don't follow men. So there is no desire on my part to search the web to read their teachings. Because I claim these words apply to me, from Hebrews 10:16 I follow God not men.Or do an internet search. True and false teachings are revealed.
A better defining statement is that these ones are deceived by this apostasy and left God, not that they were left by God because Holy Spirit was removed from them. If they ever had it they are the ones that left God first, before God left them. God does not leave Christians who attach themselves to him. God is not partial, and he accepts whoever accepts him. And he stays with whoever stays with him. See Acts 10:34.The HS is taken "out of the midst" leading to a "falling away" from the Church, and allowing the anti-Christ to arise therein ("temple of God" = spiritual temple = Church)
But the point that poster said, claiming Mr. Missler's video says Holy Spirit is removed from the entire earth and then this Man of Lawlessness is revealed is completely false.