PENTECOSTALISM VS INTELLECTUAL CHRISTIANITY

Dave L said:

It doesn't take brains to figure out today's claims to the spiritual gifts are fraudulent. If the Apostles were here, they would be headline news every night.

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and the Apostles would also take the opportunity and teach the proper use of spiritual gifts. abuse is a strawman reason to say tongues is false

DamianWarS said:

and the Apostles would also take the opportunity and teach the proper use of spiritual gifts. abuse is a strawman reason to say tongues is false

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Compare today's claims of the gifts, all hearsay, to the originals.

Why I defend Pentcostalism.... I was brought up Baptist. We initially started out well. The pastor had a Waltons type family with kids that did well. The church grew to 400 and there was charity and good feeling in the congregation. As time went on....

1. Some girl busted the youth group for smoking dope at one of their get togethers
2. None of the youth group ended up good Christians, they let the pastor go
3. They get a well educated preacher who was very dry in his delivery
4. Things go from bad to worse

I remember the well educated preacher taking us to youth functions where we were made to believe that speaking in tongues was of the devil and Pentecostalism's origins were in Africa. When I was 17 I moved in with my Grandmother here in Virginia where I fell in with the Pentecostal Holiness where the pastor...

1. Very disciplined guy - Up at 6AM every morning
2. Rejoiced in what he called being a Pentecostal Holiness country preacher
3. Revivals - At least one every two months - All with unique and good evangelists
4. Would let the Holy Spirit have his way in service
5. Take time to pray for the sick at church and in the hospitals. Carried a bottle of anointing oil with him
6. Was a friendly guy and would come visit you
7. Loved God and very Christlike.
8. A great, loving, and supportive family man as well
9. I have never heard him the first time put down Catholics or Baptist. If any had issues it was in our Pentecostal movement, and we had to watch that daily to keep the experience pure.



And an example of a member of the church, Dallas would

1. Work the local chemical factory and farm at home
2. Raised good family, him and his wife both were happy, tongue talking Pentecostals.
3. Would merrily shout in church, at home, and in the hayfield
4. I have seen farm equipment down and Dallas quickly putting things like hay rakes and balers back together. He claimed that God himself helped him mechanically and would show him things. I have never seen Dallas' hay balers broke down and they baled perfect bales every time. In which, the balers ability to tie knots mechanically has always amazed me.
5. In the altar services he would kneel behind me in prayer and tears would roll off his cheek and onto my shoulders



Along with Dallas there were many others like him who would let the praises roll during church service. During the altar service old Evans Linkous used to weep like a baby. And if he were to look back to catch the amazed look in my eye he would weep, "The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost!" And point to all the souls being blessed around the altar. After I experienced these things for myself the people would make a fuss, or in the words of the Apostle Paul, glorify God in me. One day, after a beautiful autumnal week of beautiful Virginia fall and revival I lay on my bed with open door, listening to the Katydids sing their praises to God, reading Run Baby Run, with fireflies lighting up the mountain as they would fly, and heard the Spirit ask... "Put the book down" and then continue, "Where is all that hatred, strife, and bad feeling?" In which examining my eternal man there was nothing there but sheer beauty. I thought to myself... Oh my! I got exactly what those folks got!

Dave L said:

Which means you cannot refute it.

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Which means you already know the scriptures you are requesting. The contest would end in a draw. After five pages of arguing. Nothing to gain from it.

Saint Steven said:

Which means you already know the scriptures you are requesting. The contest would end in a draw. After five pages of arguing. Nothing to gain from it.

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I think lack of tangible proof replaced by "hearsay miracles" suggests the entire movement is phoney. Plus its questionable history.

The only spirit I have ever found in intellectualism is a spirit of ego. In which the Apostle Paul declares just a little of that leavens the whole lump..

Isn't really about emotionalism VS orderly meetings that are sometimes geared to teaching instead of preaching? In a school setting people shout, drool and convulse at a basketball game. But not in the classroom.

Al Touthentop said:

We get our information on this from biblical example.

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There is precious little written in the Bible about the operation of spiritual gifts. If the Corinthians hadn't been "swinging from the chandeliers" we wouldn't have 90 percent of what we do have. Learning about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit comes mostly from being discipled by those who are ahead of you in experience and knowledge. Bible knowledge about the subject is important, but you are already making a lot of wrong conclusions about it. You should start with understanding the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Look at the book of acts and list the different ways the Spirit came on the new believers.

Al Touthentop said:

You said you could educate me or enlighten me. I asked you to do just that but not to merely repeat unsupported assertions as if that was enlightenment. I am more than happy to consider the scriptures you cite, if indeed you can. But I am getting the impression that you cannot. Instead, you are just blaming me for this inability to do so.

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For the third time...
Do you know what Cessationism is?

The student should not instruct the teacher as to how to teach.

Al Touthentop said:

Did you understand it?

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If you really want to learn about this you need to stop using your misconceptions against it. It seems you have an axe to grind here. You seek only to prove your own ignorance.

The Apostle Paul boldly declares.... “And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.” 1 Corinthians 2:4-5

Back in my old pastors time it was wonderful to have received spiritual blessings where we would , “...have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.” - 2 Corinthians 4:7

Oscarr said:

My problem with the video is that the tongues being spoken are a public display, and Paul taught that if there is no interpretation, and the person should speak to himself and to God. I think it is a misuse of tongues to put them in the public domain like that. I am not forbidding people to speak in tongues, but they have to do it in the correct manner as Paul taught it should be.

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Paul sought to bring order to the church in Corinth. Today's ungifted readers tend to turn that into legalistic rules. And use their rules to instruct the gifted as to how the gifts should be used. Paul was trying to create an emphasis on edification, not shut down tongues except for the two or three allowed with interpretation.

Saint Steven said:

There is precious little written in the Bible about the operation of spiritual gifts. If the Corinthians hadn't been "swinging from the chandeliers" we wouldn't have 90 percent of what we do have. Learning about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit comes mostly from being discipled by those who are ahead of you in experience and knowledge. Bible knowledge about the subject is important, but you are already making a lot of wrong conclusions about it. You should start with understanding the Baptism with the Holy Spirit. Look at the book of acts and list the different ways the Spirit came on the new believers.

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I remember a quote from Saint Augustine that went, "Mans extremity is Gods opportunity." But as far as I am concerned mans extremity is God's big headache! Our Pentecostal extremity is the "swinging from the chandeliers" experience where it is very obvious that such activity is not of God.

Dave L said:

Compare today's claims of the gifts, all hearsay, to the originals.

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and as I said using abuse to reject biblical gifts is a strawman.

Al Touthentop said:

I am convinced BECAUSE of the clear text of the passage. God doesn't screw up grammar. He's not an author of confusion. The clear, perfect grammatical construction and attention to detail even to the point of naming and numbering each group to which he refers, proves that the intent was to make the message clear, not muddled.

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Acts 19:2
... “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” ...

The last Pentecostal service I attended had two kids working the crowd into an elevated state of emotion, (no doubt thinking it was the Holy Spirit). They reminded me of a pair of tag team wrestlers.

The pianist was twitching and drooling with eyes rolled back in her head. While the "praise band" blared a hypnotic pulsating beat causing adrenaline spikes that further heightened the "spirituality".

Is this what Paul was referring to by calling for decency and order?

DamianWarS said:

and as I said using abuse to reject biblical gifts is a strawman.

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Put up some documented miracles and then make your claims.

rockytopva said:

I remember a quote from Saint Augustine that went, "Mans extremity is Gods opportunity." But as far as I am concerned mans extremity is God's big headache! Our Pentecostal extremity is the "swinging from the chandeliers" experience where it is very obvious that such activity is not of God.

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I don't think we can put the Spirit in a box and limit him. The Apostle gave no indication that what they were doing was NOT of God. It seems he was redirecting their energies into something more edifying.

Dave L said:

I think lack of tangible proof replaced by "hearsay miracles" suggests the entire movement is phoney. Plus its questionable history.

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Your whole argument is built on the foundation of your own personal bad experience. Not everyone has had a bad experience with it.

Saint Steven said:

I don't think we can put the Spirit in a box and limit him. The Apostle gave no indication that what they were doing was NOT of God. It seems he was redirecting their energies into something more edifying.

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They were wicked for approving incest. Getting drunk and gorging themselves at the Lord's table. And repugnant misusing the gifts.