What is the Good News to a Secular World?

yeshuaslavejeff

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As written in all Scripture; BY THE SPIRIT (of the FATHER YAHWEH) ...
"in spirit and in truth"


all other religions including Mormons have other spirits (not godly ones)


But how do know when God reveals it? How do you know it was not the book of Mormon?
 
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packermann

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I asked "You still did not answer my question. If the Church became worldly 1700 years ago and the Church determined what should go into the Bible 100 years later then why should you trust it?"

Post #74 did not explain at all how you can trust a Bible that was assembled after the Church was already worldly.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I asked "You still did not answer my question. If the Church became worldly 1700 years ago and the Church determined what should go into the Bible 100 years later then why should you trust it?"

Post #74 did not explain at all how you can trust a Bible that was assembled after the Church was already worldly.
I didn't see him say he trusts it, or anyone else said so ?

Trust the Heavenly Father that He Did as He Says, in His Word.

Not trusting any man, per se.

Remember Romans 2, et al ?

WHO writes TORAH on men's hearts ? (perfectly!)
 
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timothyu

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Trust the Heavenly Father that He Did as He Says, in His Word.

Not trusting any man, per se.
Exactly, as Jesus told Peter when He said the Father's truth was the foundation of His church, not any influence of man.
 
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packermann

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As written in all Scripture; BY THE SPIRIT (of the FATHER YAHWEH) ...
"in spirit and in truth"


all other religions including Mormons have other spirits (not godly ones)

These other religions would say that they have the right spirit. How do you know they are wrong and we are right?

Only Catholicism has the answer.
1. Using the New Testament only as historical documents, we know that the apostles testified to their deaths that they saw the risen Christ.
2. The apostles could not have lied because they faced martyrdom, and no one dies for what he knows to be a lie.
3. The apostles could not have been hallucinating because they ate with him and they touched His scars. You cannot do this to a hallucination.
4. Therefore, Jesus must have sent by God. He is at least a prophet (later on, we shall prove He is more than that).
5. Using the NT as mere historical documents, He changed the name of Simon to Peter, meaning Rock. He said that upon this Rock He will build (institute) His Church. Jesus never commissioned the apostles to write anything. He commission to build up His Church. He promised that the Holy Spirit will lead this Church into ALL truth.
6. This Church, although comprised of fallen individuals, was still infallible when it came to truth.
7. In about 325 AD, The Church gathered together, and led by the Holy Spirit, defined the Trinity and that Christ was and is God.
8.In 405 AD, the Church assembled the Bible. I know that no error was done in assembling this Bible because the Holy Spirit leads them into all truth.

So from the Catholic perspective, I can know the Trinity, I can know that Jesus is fully God, and I can know that the Bible from Genesis to Revelation is the Word of God. Protestantism is a mess! Some deny the Trinity (the Unitarians), some deny the deity or resurrection of Christ (liberal Protestant theologians), and some deny that the Bible is the Word of God (liberal theologians). They cannot agree on anything except that they are not Catholic!

I ask all Protestants simple question on how you can trust a Bible assembled by a corrupt Church and I do not feel that I am given a straightforward answer from anyone! All you do is repeat that God reveals it. You know that the Bible is the Word of God because God revealed it - in His Bible. That is a circular argument. I shudder to think how anyone would answer how you know that there is a Trinity or how you know that Jesus is God.
 
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packermann

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Because the scripture was written long before a gentile hierarchy got it's hands on it.

Again, you need to study Church history - especially how we got the Bible.

First of all, we do not have the originals of the NT document. We have hand-written copies and copies of copies. So the Gentile hierarchy would have gotten its hands on making the copies! And if they changed the copies how would we even know?

Second, the documents were assembled by this Gentile hierarchy in 405 AD. You are missing how complex this task was! There were 19 gospels for them to select. They rejected all but four. If this Gentile hierarchy was so corrupt, how can trust the way they assemble the Bible? We know that the Gentiles were polytheistic. Since the assembly of the Bible were in the hands of those who believe in multiple Gods could they have accepted only the gospels that could be construed as teaching that there were three Gods and that Jesus was one of those Gods?

Now, mind you, this is not what I believe. I do not believe that the Church was so corrupt to do such a thing. But since you do, I do not see how you avoid the slippery slope of denying everything.
 
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timothyu

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If this Gentile hierarchy was so corrupt, how can trust the way they assemble the Bible?
The canon was basically complete longer before it was made official and yes there could have been a bit of tweaking in the process, never mind that Peter and Paul's works were not back to back to show their conflict, or that Rev. was at the end yet written before John. But the point is, being human, the ruling gentiles had already overlooked the significance of the Gospel of the Kingdom, having no Hebrew background, focusing instead on religion building thus preferring the letters of Paul, and saw no need to eliminate The Kingdom. They could pass it off as the one they were building. They could self justify their actions (as man does) as representing a physical kingdom like they were building in order to rule, rather than serving the real Kingdom, which means governance of God over man's rule.. They were too far gone at that point to put His will before theirs.

Had they any conscience about the Gospel of the Kingdom, the would have avoided partnering with the world of man contrary to the Gospel of said Kingdom. They were already too immersed in their own governance to care about the governance of God.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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These other religions would say that they have the right spirit. How do you know they are wrong and we are right?

Only Catholicism has the answer.
No, like the Reformers, Anabaptists count that as one of the "other" religions (or worse!) .

Scripture says to the question how do we know? "By the Spirit HE PUTS WITHIN US" - our new creation spirit, and His Ruach Hakodesh, always perfectly and harmoniously in line with ALL of His Word (this is where the 'other' religions fail) .

We overcome
By the word of our testimony (of Jesus) AND the blood of the Lamb Who was slain.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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The Father's Revelation , His Granted Understanding, by His Spirit, in Truth, in Jesus, His Faithfulness, is where our trust is, we rely on Him for all things in this life and in the life to come.
Don't rely on mankind nor on religion.
 
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timothyu

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Don't rely on mankind nor on religion.
Agreed. Discernment is key. Just like in the world of man, within Christianity and each denomination there are two types. In the case of Christianity, it is those still of the world and those of the Kingdom. Opposing ideals in the same religion.

And yes, the proper way modelling the original sect of The Way would never have survived being so outnumbered in an adversarial world. It was only natural for them to exist within a more worldly oriented religion. Whenever they did something astounding that stood out and the people venerated them for, the church simply made them saints and said, here is the impossible that you cannot achieve (not including the politically motivated saints that the worldly church would prefer). Yet all these saints did was follow the Kingdom and the commandments of God., something if pracriced by the people would eliminate the need for the 'official church'. But to include these of the Kingdom with the church elite made the political saints look better.
 
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packermann

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The canon was basically complete longer before it was made official and yes there could have been a bit of tweaking in the process, never mind that Peter and Paul's works were not back to back to show their conflict, or that Rev. was at the end yet written before John.

The following were in dispute until the Church officially assembled them into the Bible:
Epistle of James
Epistle of Jude
2 Peter
2 and 3 John
Book of Revelation
Epistle to the Hebrews

See Antilegomena - Wikipedia

We cannot find any writings that of the others being in dispute, but that does not mean that much, in my opinion. If the Gentile Church was as corrupt as you believe, then the Church could have easily destroyed any writings that disputed the other books in the Bible. In fact, that is exactly what I would expect from a corrupt church.

But the point is, being human, the ruling gentiles had already overlooked the significance of the Gospel of the Kingdom, having no Hebrew background, focusing instead on religion building thus preferring the letters of Paul, and saw no need to eliminate The Kingdom.

The problem you are having is that your God is too small. Christ promised that the gates of death and hell will not prevail against His Church. My faith is not in the frailty of the Gentiles or the frailty of the Hebrews. Read the Old Testament, and you will see the the majority of the time the Hebrews were very frail. They constantly fell into idolatry. David, who wrote the Psalms, committed adultery with Bathsheba and then murdered her husband. Solomon started well, but ended with leading Israel into idolatry. And yet he wrote Proverbs. Israel was constantly partnering with their pagan neighbors and rejecting the one, true God.

But God is greater than our sins. In spite of the sins of Israel, God brought His oracles through them to the world. In the same way, God has promised the Church that the Holy Spirit will guide them into all truth. Their sins only shows that it is not because of them but because of God's power that they still uphold the truth.

Paul wrote that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Timothy 3:15). If the Gentile Church fell into heresy then Paul was wrong. If he was wrong then his writings cannot be part of the infallible Word of God.

They could pass it off as the one they were building. They could self justify their actions (as man does) as representing a physical Kingdom like they were building, rather than serving the Kingdom, which means governance of God over man's.. They were too far gone at that point to put His will before theirs.

The Hebrews saw it as a physical kingdom as well. Read the OT. They had a physical Temple. They had a physical kingdom. Gnostics were Gentile "Christians". They blended Christianity with the Gentile mystery religions. They taught that matter meant nothing, only the spirit. They rejected the physical death of Christ, the physical resurrection of Christ, and the physical Church. What you are advocating is a modern-day Gnosticism - like the New Age movement. The physical means nothing, only the spirit.

I wonder, since you believe that the physical is nothing, how do you feel about sex? Since sex is physical, is there any governance of God over anything as physical as sex?
 
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Anguspure

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I'm not suggesting grunting around with other men. I know what you mean, life with navy guys was really rough. I found it hard to adapt when I left the navy.

I would urge you to look at the long term picture. This life is a blink of an eye compared with the next. What we do now sets us up for eternity. God knows you, all your needs, your trials and the reason why you are going through them. Sometime we have to cast all that we are, all the problems, all our desires, all our ambitions at His feet and tell Him that He can have it all. I had a vision when I was going through this stage. I saw myself like a kid with a bag of treasures - cricket ball, penknife, torch, string, whistle ad such. God asked me to hand myself over to Him. I started giving this and that, slowly, reluctantly. The Lord said to me, "Just give Me the bag!" So I did. We have to come to an end of ourselves. I gave many things for real. Music was one, competitive sport was another, and my ambitions to be something in life. In the last few years, some of those things have been restored. Not all. I still don't play sport. I'm not fit enough anyway. God wants us to serve Him because he is God, not because He is some kind of divine Santa handing out gifts. Many people want God for what He can do for them. Paul Washer put it well: many people want to go to heaven - as long as God is not there. This "come to Jesus, He has a wonderful plan for your life" is just salesmanship. Lord Jesus said that we enter God's kingdom through tribulation. I did not see that in the brochure! When we get our priorities right, God will release His blessings. I found my kids after 15 years by a miracle. We are not close, but I know they are ok. We prayed for my son. He was cleaning barrels in a recycling centre. He applied for a job with Apple, along with thousands of others. He's been there 6 years now.
If you will accept Jesus as Lord as well as Saviour, things will change for the better. If God finds no reason to withhold a blessing, He will release it. We need to humble ourselves. Complaining to God is ok. Complaining about God just digs the hole deeper.
I was not suggesting "grunting around" with other men. I was involved in a men's group that was just a "compare notes as to how hard done by we are" meeting. I did not stay. We need real Christian fellowship. If you do not find that in a church, start something yourself. I know of a motorcycle ministry. Men are being helped, healed, born again and encouraged. They started small and ended up with 50 or more. I know your circumstances are a little different, but you know what I am saying.
I know what you are saying. I've tried it all and things have only got worse. People have talked about eternity, but that just makes me wish it was all over so that the next thing I know would be that. As it is I don't believe in taking the life that I have given to Him, so for now I am stuck.

Nice that you regained contact with your kids. I would not handle that level of alienation from my kids, bad enough the alienation and rejection I have face myself, something would have to break.

I don't expect a divine Santa. But the Kingdom is supposed to be one of Love and I do expect that.
I have suffered repeated alienation and rejection from women since I was about 5 years old. All men have ever done is encouraged that alienation. I want Him to heal me and restore something resembling that Love and I have been laying that at His feet for 31 years now. If He doesn't want to do that then there isn't a whole lot more worth asking Him for. He has blessed me in many other areas but this pain gets in the way of everything else.

I have tried to become involved in fits and starts for over 28 years now. What happens (to a greater or lesser degree) is that by the time anybody has twigged I am at home (after a week or two), and then remembered who I am, and then perhaps it occurs to them that I might want to be involved in something, time off has disappeared. Then when I don't answer the phone (ships are still out of mobile range) they reason, I guess, that I am just too busy and not interested. So the cycle goes around and around. I have been trying to become involved in a small concreting job at the local Church for 4 months now. I have offered everything that I can, including the funds to pay for a concrete truck but for some reason nothing is happening.
If I had just one point of contact with a person who was able to connect me with the Church in a meaningful way (I was hoping my wife would be that person), it wouldn't be an issue. But I do not, despite my best efforts. Men are non-communicative and women are not allowed.

I have served God in the way that you are suggesting and it is my professional role at sea to act with all of the fruit of the Spirit, in all humility and honesty, looking to the needs of others before myself. My whole philosophy of management comes from 1 Corinthians 13.
So where is the comfort and help when we are empty and hurting? When we have emptied ourselves, where is the refill? Where is something as simple as a hug? None of this exists on the path of a believer, at least not a believer that has been left out in the cold.

TBH the most encouragement I've had in the last month or so comes from people like Jordan Petterson and Bettina Arndt (Youtube), who are frankly honest about the issue that faces men and acknowledge and affirm the actual nature of a man rather than trying to avoid it and pretend that we should all simply become asexual non-aggressive little angels. Also the counsel offered to me by other men in the industry I am working in at least tallies with my experience, even if their advice to just live it up and get debauched to ease the pain isn't exactly Godly.

So as a believer who expects help from his Lord, so that I can also be a light to others, it turns out that I am the one that needs the help from the secular world and the Kingdom is of little use.
 
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timothyu

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If the Gentile Church was as corrupt as you believe, then the Church could have easily destroyed any writings that disputed the other books in the Bible.
Again, the scripture was written long before the gentiles took over. And if you want to build an empire built upon God you need the works that not only described religion building but also an empire to come. That is how you justify empire building by using God. The Kingdom served man's purpose rather well. Just like everything else of God, man and the Adversary are quite capable of taking it and using for their own purposes. Two sides to every coin.

The problem you are having is that your God is too small. Christ promised that the gates of death and hell will not prevail against His Church.
Yes and that was based upon the truth from God, not the beliefs and truths (doctrines and theology) of man. Two different definitions of church. Remember the conversation Jesus had with Peter and the Apostles about that fact?

Paul wrote that the church is the pillar and foundation of truth
Paul said 'the truth', you say 'truth'. Big difference. One refers to 'the truth' of God, yours sounds more like 'truth' of a denominational church, am I right?. And Paul's church was the people who lived the truth from God, His two commandments. It was not an institution that claimed leadership. Paul was right. He taught the Gospel of the Kingdom as verified in Acts. The religion broadsided Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom/governance of God, and built it's own empire on the same foundation as the Roman Empire. It accepted what Jesus had turned down in the desert.

The Hebrews saw it as a physical kingdom as well.
Of course they did.. and they were wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

What you are advocating is a modern-day Gnosticism - like the New Age movement.

No, I'm advocating pre-Gentile interference. The time and church of the Way.. the example set by Jesus. A way of life, not subordination to yet another hierarchical institution with it's rules and customs and faux human authority that even had it's own army.
 
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packermann

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Again, the scripture was written long before the gentiles took over.
the
Again, what was determined to be scripture was done by the Gentile Christians.

And if you want to build an empire built upon God you need the works that not only described religion building but also an empire to come.

You make outrageous statement with presenting any evidence. I can present evidence that the Gentile Church was very concerned about the empire to come.

...I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come.
Amen.

Nicene Creed 325 AD

And at or in connection with that judgment the following events shall come to pass, as we have learned: Elias the Tishbite shall come; the Jews shall believe; Antichrist shall persecute; Christ shall judge; the dead shall rise; the good and the wicked shall be separated;

City of God, Chapter 30 - Augustine (early 5th century AD)


When Christ shall come to judge He will appear in the form of glory, on account of the authority becoming a judge. Now it pertains to the dignity of judicial power to have certain signs that induce people to reverence and subjection: and consequently many signs will precede the advent of Christ when He shall come to judgment, in order that the hearts of men be brought to subjection to the coming judge, and be prepared for the judgment, being forewarned by those signs.
Summa Theologiae - Thomas Aquinas (written 1265–1274)

When the soul has once entered into the happy kingdom of God, “there will be nothing to molest it. God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and death shall be no more, not mourning, nor crying, nor sorrow shall be any more; for the former things are passed away... Oh! how much more beautiful the city of paradise! how splendid the appearance of these citizens, who are all clothed in royal robes; for, as St. Augustine says, they are all kings.
On Preparation for Death - Alphonsus Liguori (lived 1696–1787)

The Nicene was written after the time that you wrote that the Church became Gentile and lost the vision of the empire to come. And yet that Creed says that we should look forward to the life to come. Augustine, Aquinas, and Liguori are Doctors of the Church. They all wrote of the coming kingdom. Go into a traditional Catholic Church and you see murals of the angels and saints praising God in heaven. If there is one thing that can be said about the Church, it is very other-worldly.


Yes and that was based upon the truth from God, not the beliefs and truths (doctrines and theology) of man. Two different definitions of church. Remember the conversation Jesus had with Peter and the Apostles about that fact?

No, I do not remember Jesus talking about two definition of the church. Could you provide the reference?

Paul said 'the truth', you say 'truth'. Big difference. One refers to 'the truth' of God, yours sounds more like 'truth' of a denominational church, am I right?.

You are so wrong. You are reading far too much into what I wrote. There was no deliberate reason I wrote "truth" instead of "the truth". I just forgot to insert the definite article. I was not thinking of a truth of a denominational church.

And Paul's church was the people who lived the truth from God, His two commandments. It was not an institution that claimed leadership. Paul was right. He taught the Gospel of the Kingdom as verified in Acts. The religion broadsided Jesus' Gospel of the Kingdom/governance of God, and built it's own empire on the same foundation as the Roman Empire. It accepted what Jesus had turned down in the desert.

You are reading far too much into 1 Timothy 3:15, just as you read too much in my ommission of a definite article in writing "truth". Paul did not write "the church, which consists of people who lived the truth". He wrote "the church, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth".

Of course they did.. and they were wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right.

That is nothing but a cliche. You have been arguing that the Church lost its vision of the spiritual kingdom of God when it went from being Jewish to Gentile. But now you admit that the Jews did not have the vision of the spiritual, either. And your comeback is that two wrongs don't make a right????

No, I'm advocating pre-Gentile interference. The time and church of the Way.. the example set by Jesus. A way of life, not subordination to yet another hierarchical institution with it's rules and customs and faux human authority that even had it's own army.

I am starting to realize how radical you are. You do sound like you are advocating something that sounds like a form of the New Age Movement.

I noticed that you avoided my sex question. I wanted to see how you feel about the institution of marriage. Do you believe in free love or do you believe that we should get married by a priest or a minister before we engage in sex? Would getting married by a clergyman before having sex a subordination to a hierarchical institution with its rules and customs? Why will you not give a straight answer to this question?

Also, since you do not believe in subordinating a hierarchical institution with it's rules and customs, does that mean that you do not go to church? It sure sounds like it. It sounds like you believe that all a person needs to do is love. Please give me a straightforward answer. Do you go to church every week?
 
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timothyu

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Again, what was determined to be scripture was done by the Gentile Christians.
Final canonization means nothing. That's like a talentless recording studio picking out a greatest hit album of a talented musician.
 
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timothyu

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You make outrageous statement with presenting any evidence. I can present evidence that the Gentile Church was very concerned about the empire to come.
You bet! One side focused on their own empire riding on the coat-tails of God. Remember there were two sides to the Christian coin. Don't confuse Christian with Catholic, especially latin.
 
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timothyu

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No, I do not remember Jesus talking about two definition of the church. Could you provide the reference?

Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
(man's truth)

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
(God's truth)

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

(ta da)
 
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timothyu

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I just forgot to insert the definite article. I was not thinking of a truth of a denominational church.
Ok :) But two different churches within Christianity holds true, instution vs way of life. One which uses God to suit it's worldly purposes and the other which changes to suit the will of God.
 
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